Expectation at work around working hours?

[Hop27]

We are back in the office FT and have been for a while. Contracted hours are 8:30-5, however EVERYONE works more as and when required to meet deadlines, get through workload.
My boss has started complaining about everyone's timekeeping, apparently coming in late (8:15) and leaving early (5:15/30), I walked in at 8:05 and it was noted that I was 'late' lots of jibes about working part time if you leave at 5.
He wants to sit everyone down and explain the expectation is that everyone works 8-5:30/6pm - everyday and that it's respectful to ask permission to leave early or arrive late. He keeps going on about how flexible he is and will support everyone to work flexibly.
If he isn't in the office he'll call after hours to see how your day was. I was on the train at 5:45, he called I answered and you could hear the disdain in his voice 'so you can't really talk because you've already left for the day and your on public transport' ....
AIBU (I doubt very much I am), I love my job but seriously how is this the way to treat people it's archaic. We are trying to hold an intervention about how ridiculous he is being!
(FWIW he is unhappy at home, it's common knowledge and uses work as an excuse not to go home)

Lots of replies !!!
We aren't unionised, I work in professional services (within construction related industry), I am more than happy to put a shift in and often will work evenings and weekends to get stuff done. But at want to do that at home, not in the office. I'm paid well, but money isn't everything. I will honestly tip my coffee over him if he comments about me being late at 8:05 because the traffic was horrible.
A poor junior member of staff was pulled up for 'timekeeping' due to her juggling her masters and FT role, when she commented on her core working hours according to her contract... she was met with, well she can just 'Fuck off' then .....

I worked for someone like that
I left

I think the wording about "business need" is really about exceptional circumstances, not a day-in-day-out expectation of extra hours because of 'culture'. That's not some gotcha clause to get you to work regular extra hours for no extra pay.

I think of myself as self-employed, just on a long-term contract. My customer wants exclusivity, 35 hours a week of work from me, fulfilled between 8-6 monday-friday. They agreed to pay me a certain salary in return for my labour and expertise as well as few other things like pension, sick pay, private medical insurance and so on. If they asked me to work additional hours I would either decline or negotiate additional fees. If I asked for more money because of my specific short term needs, they would likely decline.

If there was a special event, or piece of work that needed additional working hours, well if it was known about in advance I'd ask for more money. If it were a surprise, well as long as it fitted in with me I would try to be flexible and help out the business. But I'd expect the same in return if I needed to pick up a relative from hospital, or wanted an extra half an hour on my lunch break. Bit like in the Godfather. I'll do this for you, but the unspoken undertone here is that the employer owes you a favour now.

If employee-employer relationships are only one way, they are abusive. Employers have gotten away with 'its the culture here' stuff for too long. Often its on the promise of progression that never materialises and stems from a desire to squeeze the workers until the pips squeak then either rake in the profits of free labour or boast to the next level up boss about their "productivity."

If you a partner or major shareholder, or commission earner, crack on, but that is an individuals choice.

Don't be a martyr. Do your hours. If standing up to management doesn't get you anywhere, other posters have good suggestions re: HR etc. By all means be flexible if an unusual circumstance arises, but only if that is reciprocated. Remember, we advise people on here in abusive relationships to LTB.

If your hours are stated in your contact you should not be expected to work unpaid overtime There is however a risk you will be seen as a troublemaker if you complain. Believe me others will probably not back you up if you raise a formal grievance. Honestly the easiest solution is to get another job.

@SlightlyGeordieJohn you’re denying people promotions and pay rises because they won’t work for free? That’s immoral and exploitative, not to mention blatantly discriminatory against people with caring responsibilities (usually women). You’re inexplicably proud of this for some reason but please be aware that we see you just as you are and the people you work with or who work for you do, as well.

I'm glad my generation and also Ys put our foot down about working hours. When I last worked in a law firm the partners were moaning about the latest crop of trainees not wanting to put the (really long) hours in. Hurrah for them, I thought. Boo fucking hoo for the partners. There is not a violin minuscule enough upon which to represent my sadness for them.

You can still join a union.

which I’d advise you and your workmates to do. As soon as possible.

trade Unions are there to assist workers, to educate them about their employment rights and to be there, supporting people like you who are experiencing unreasonable expectations.

And what do HR think of that attitude

Very much enjoying the arsehole bosses insisting that working extra hours is the only way to have a successful career.

They would say that wouldn't they 😆

For a start, I'd stop answering his phone calls out of work hours when you're already on the way home. Let him leave a message and if it's something that does actually need dealing with before the next day, you can handle it appropriately. If he just wants to check in about the day, he can do that during work hours the next day.

My current work place is great, they won't allow you to work more than 37 hours and give you complete flexibility around shifts. If you do go over your hours you get the time back next week and can work from home

I am more than happy to put a shift in and often will work evenings and weekends to get stuff done. But at want to do that at home, not in the office. I'm paid well, but money isn't everything. I will honestly tip my coffee over him if he comments about me being late at 8:05 because the traffic was horrible.

Don't do that. Do this:

1. Join a union.
2. Write down every unpleasent, bullying thing he does.
3. Start arriving and leaving on time and when he acts like a dick about it have a meeting with him and your union rep.

Stop doing more than you are paid for until and unless you are treated with respect and fairly remunerated for your work. It's fine to have a well paid job where you do above contracted hours but only if that's appropriate to the market and if it's appreciated.

Don't let it build up until you kick off- manage him and expect him to behave professionally.

Leaving at 5pm every night would definitely have been very career limiting

that assumes people want a "career". Lots of people enjoy their "jobs".

The point of this post is that the OP is already doing more than her contract says and even that isn't enough. It does sound like he has issues elsewhere so is focusing too much on work. It would be great if your colleagues and you could all address it together as it isn't fair on anyone and everyone will start looking for new jobs.

I have worked in a very low paid job straight out of uni where we were all expected to hang around until 6.30/7. It was completely pointless. I've also been in a job where we were all encouraged to go home but knew that if anything urgent happened we would be happy to come back (emergency services). It was a far happier and healthier environment.

@Hop27 the main union for the construction industry is Unite. I’m sure they would be able to help you.

You sound young and capable. If it’s a small industry you may just be better jumping ship now to new firm. Dealing with boss/hr is very draining.
Don’t be tempted to do anything that could backfire on you. If you simmer with resentment you risk blowing up at work and facing disciplinary.

I've done jobs where I did my contracted hours and also jobs where starting early/staying late to get the job done were the norm - but we were either getting the time back or being paid extra for it.

I've also had the nightmare bosses in different jobs - one where I wasn't arriving early enough ignoring my late finishes, another ignoring early starts and saying I wasn't staying late enough!!

You are going to get a lot of people agreeing with you but they will mostly be coming from a point of view of paid lower salaries and not concerned about career progression. I am not sure what you mean by professional services because that's what I do (qualified accountant). We work long hours for high pay but at the junior levels you are working long hours for the promise of higher pay and its a bit exploitative.

I expect my staff to get the work done and that means a bit of overtime sometimes. I wouldn't be happy with an hours king or queen who only does 9 to 5 but I wouldn't tell them off. I know one she got promoted to manager but she's not going any further particularly fast.

It sounds as if you need to suck up the accepted hours to avoid the catty comments. If you are well paid you can absorb this. It depends on what you want out of your employer. I expect flexibility out of mine (for medical, child related and domestic reasons as well as leaving early for leisure when I need to or buggering off for a long lunch) and occasional treats (meals out, days out, bonuses). My company get a lot out of me but I wouldn't work well (or this hard) in an inflexible environment where someone is breathing down my neck.

I guess I'm saying you might need to get a new job.

Managers like this are idiots and is the very worst of middle managers. They should care about business outputs and outcomes rather than presenteeism, but they’re too stupid to understand the difference - of the many reasons the UK is arguably the most worked country in Europe with some of the lowest outputs. People can be in the office 8-6pm but working inefficiently and drinking tea/chatting all day, vs someone who gets their work done on time.

I’ve worked above my contracted hours for years, it was expected in my role/industry and seniority. In return I was very well paid and got a lot of flexibility, so it worked both ways.

However in this instance I’m not reading there was a pressing business deadline or customer project etc. - it’s just because he is a little
micro manager control freak who thinks this is the only way to exert authority.

I would 100% let him crack on with organising that meeting. Take copious notes and then follow up with a few emails of your own. It’s not comfortable but you either head this off now or you’ll be heading off to another job as it will grind you down.

"You are going to get a lot of people agreeing with you but they will mostly be coming from a point of view of paid lower salaries and not concerned about career progression"

There's an awful lot of people trying to convince themselves that unpaid labour is the only way to have a highly paid job. It's not true

I wouldn't be happy with an hours king or queen who only does 9 to 5 but I wouldn't tell them off.

Would you feel the same about a client who paid you an agreed amount (whether hour-based or task-based) to deal with the figures for one financial period but then also thought it might be nice for you to make a good early start on the next period on an (unpaid) goodwill basis - just to show your dedication and that you aren't one of those dreadful 'work as agreed' kings or queens?

Thankfully in my industry this actually quite discriminatory expectation is fading. For those who have to leave at a certain time due to caring commitments (not just children) etc they have been sidelined for promotion and progression unfairly for far too long- its a horrible attitude that dedication to the role is supposedly in how many hours you work for free (like a mug). We should be normalising and encouraging doing your hours.

There's an awful lot of people trying to convince themselves that unpaid labour is the only way to have a highly paid job. It's not true

You're absolutely right - it sounds so daft when you put it like that. It kind of reminds me of these phishing scams where they promise you will definitely receive a guaranteed payment of $3million, but you will have to pay them a $6,000 admin fee before they can release the funds!

Hey champ, how about you/your company employs enough people as to manage the workload without expecting lots of unpaid overtime as standard. Yes your expectations are wrong and I feel sorry for those who work for you.

I took a job once that was stated to be 9-5.
Some reports were due that day, which I completed and put on my managers desk for checking before lunchtime. She knew they were there.
At 5 to 5 I said to her, I'll send those reports tomorrow then.
She started looking at the reports (which was going to take longer than 5 minutes) but at 5pm I got up and said, bye see you tomorrow!
My colleagues were amazed that I was leaving on time with work unfinished.
Overtime wasn't paid and I wasn't going to wait around for her - the reports went the next day and the clients didn't complain.
I didn't stay there long once I learned that they expected a large amount of free overtime worked! The job just didn't pay enough to warrant that much dedication!