Expectation at work around working hours?

[Hop27]

We are back in the office FT and have been for a while. Contracted hours are 8:30-5, however EVERYONE works more as and when required to meet deadlines, get through workload.
My boss has started complaining about everyone's timekeeping, apparently coming in late (8:15) and leaving early (5:15/30), I walked in at 8:05 and it was noted that I was 'late' lots of jibes about working part time if you leave at 5.
He wants to sit everyone down and explain the expectation is that everyone works 8-5:30/6pm - everyday and that it's respectful to ask permission to leave early or arrive late. He keeps going on about how flexible he is and will support everyone to work flexibly.
If he isn't in the office he'll call after hours to see how your day was. I was on the train at 5:45, he called I answered and you could hear the disdain in his voice 'so you can't really talk because you've already left for the day and your on public transport' ....
AIBU (I doubt very much I am), I love my job but seriously how is this the way to treat people it's archaic. We are trying to hold an intervention about how ridiculous he is being!
(FWIW he is unhappy at home, it's common knowledge and uses work as an excuse not to go home)

Personally I think we do too much ‘standard’ contract with a lot unsaid. The truth is, the same contract will not work for everyone - some people are ambitious, saving for a house deposit; some people have other responsibilities (pick kids up, look after relatives). It doesn’t mean that those who need to be out on time are worse workers (the work they do may be equivalent quality of other people) - they may just want a different type of contract.

in order to set expectations, retain staff, increase productivity, we should offer different types of contract. People don’t just fit into a uniform mould.

Is there an HR department and are you in a union?

The informal comments are bad but a formal meeting laying out expectations of 90 minutes non-contracted hours every day breaches all kinds of employment law.

What exactly does the contract say?

Is it “working hours are 8.30-5” end of?

Or is it “working hours are 8.30-5 but you may be expected to work different or additional hours to fulfil business needs” or something like that?

Mine is the latter. I am a lawyer and contractual hours are kind of irrelevant tbh, everyone knows that the real hours are whatever it takes to get the job done.

I expect many professional/managerial roles have similar contractual wording unless you’ve specifically negotiated fixed hours.

So what does yours say..?

Unless it’s optional (and paid) I’m in at the start time and out at the end time and couldn’t care less what some tyrannical boss makes of it. I’ve learnt over the years there is no such thing as loyalty from a company so they won’t be getting an unpaid minute more from me.

I'm with TrashyPanda.

Why does 'loyalty' and 'dedication' only go one way? Why can an employer freely say that they'll need you to do X extra hours free, because the job needs it; but an employee (who may well already be doing that when asked, on a regular basis) saying that they'll need an extra couple of hundred pounds this month, because they had an unexpected car repair bill would be laughed at and mocked?

Being an employee doing a job is just an exchange of labour and skills for money, like any other transaction. If you've agreed and signed a contract, based on number of hours, why would you expect anything different that gives either party an unfair advantage at the expense of the other one?

That's not to say that a working relationship has to be rigidly adhered to, to the letter of the contract, but it has to work both ways. The kind of boss who will happily give you time off to see your child's school play or tell you to knock off and go home in the middle of a very quiet afternoon (with no difference to your salary/wages) is usually also the kind of boss for whom employees are willing to step up in return and come in early or stay later when there's a big workload on.

OP isn’t getting recompense

if someone is doing their job well, it is prejudice (and bloody stupid) not to consider them for promotion because they don’t want to work extra hours for no pay.

He’s having a laugh. Do I see a claim for constructive dismissal on the horizon?

What about people that need to drop off/pick up children?

Where work is expected beyond contracted hours they need to realise it's an act of goodwill and needs to be around other needs. Trying to formalise and make demands on when it is done will backfire.

The informal comments are bad but a formal meeting laying out expectations of 90 minutes non-contracted hours every day breaches all kinds of employment law.

Absolutely. And they're running the risk of indirect discrimination as I imagine those additional hours would be difficult for those (predominantly women) relying on paid childcare.

What about workers who need to leave on time because of caring arrangements?

are they going to be prejudiced against too?

or should they just leave their kids standing outside the school, cos they can’t afford to pay for a childminder, because - wait for it - their employer expects them to work extra hours without extra pay?

I've reported my own post...am an idiot!

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that you aren't an employer yourself?

It doesn't woerk only one way. A healthy working relationship works both ways, with flexibility on both sides.

The idea here though that the attitude that's appropriate on a low-paid job that's paid by the hour is also automatically appropriate in a high-paying profession is imbecilic.

I've worked weekends, I've logged on to do work at 9pm at night so we could complete deployments outside of business hours. I don't work extra hours for free. That's what 'extra hours to meet the needs of the business' should mean.

If that's a problem for an employer they can get rid of me with no notice (contractor). I don't have a problem finding work and don't give away my labour for free. This attitude hasn't held me back at all.

Or is it “working hours are 8.30-5 but you may be expected to work different or additional hours to fulfil business needs” or something like that?

Even if it is that - and many jobs indeed are - it's hardly a business need, just because a controlling boss likes to dictate that you be at your desk for regular extended hours, regardless of the workload.

I can't speak for OP's boss, but I've worked with controlling, arrogant people in the past who make a massive play of being present. An awful lot of these people will exaggeratedly greet others, send a basic email first and last thing (as proff that they were there) and then spend ages eating, chatting to their mates, making endless personal phone calls and playing Solitaire.

Some of them would also daily berate as 'latecomers' the people who, by agreement, do 9-5, whilst they (by choice) do 8-4 and always have their coats on and bag in hand ready to go by 3:50.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that you aren't an employer yourself?

im going to go out on a limb here and suggest you don’t care much about employment law?

Why does 'loyalty' and 'dedication' only go one way?

Exactly. I work above my contracted hours. It's very much an expectation in my role at my level. However, not only do I get paid well ( for the sector ) I get a huge amount of annual leave plus a flexibility to make the job work around my commitments.

If I was being told I had to work an additional 90mins a day, without pay at a time dictated by the company then I wouldn't be so generous with my unpaid overtime that's for sure!

Even if it is that - and many jobs indeed are - it's hardly a business need, just because a controlling boss likes to dictate that you be at your desk for regular extended hours, regardless of the workload.

Exactly.

This isn't about business needs, but extending contracted office hours 'just because'.

When I had a boss who was trying to enforce a requirement to do 7.5 hours work when our contracted hours were 7 a day it was resolved via an "innocent query" to HR.

HR were horrified and had a word.

I would start by asking HR to confirm core hours for your department as there seems to be some inconsistency regarding expectations around start and finish times. Hopefully HR will clarify and it will be sorted.

It doesn't woerk only one way. A healthy working relationship works both ways, with flexibility on both sides

the whole point of this thread is that employer is expecting the workers to be flexible and work extra hours without giving anything in return - overtime, salary increase, enhanced pension contributions, time off in lieu etc.

and that is exploitative.

Unacceptable. You are paid to work your contracted hours. If you occasionally need to work outside of these hours to meet business needs, this should be compensated through flexi time or overtime pay- regular uncompensated extra hours is not acceptable.

Of course I do. I'll tell you what, champ, when you run your own division of your company, you organise it how you like. Until then, please don't try to tell others that they are doing it wrong.

In all these jobs where unpaid overtime is expected and necessary week in, week out - why isn't it in the contract?

Can you imagine having a contract stating you had 30 days annual leave and then someone saying, oh but it's only expected you take 20 of them otherwise you won't get promoted?

Yes, I absolutely agree this is about controlling rather than business needs.

However if her contract does contain the “business needs” type wording, it will make it harder for her to complain about the extra time or refuse to do it, if her boss is saying it’s necessary. Not impossible, but harder. So it’s worth knowing which it is before advising what she should do.