watching a town completely die

[BlessedByTheShitFairy]

This is so sad really, the town where I grew up. I know many business folded during covid and many high street staples have been closing for years, but this is different.

It's a large town, over 400K population, had a bustling, varied and thriving centre for most it's history, has now lost, and many before covid:

Debs, Next, M&S, Topshop, H&M, Body Shop, its central post office, game shops, cafes, most youth related places such as skating, bowling, carts, ALL restaurants (no exaggeration), health food stores, 2 shopping centres, most pubs, it's huge market, several banks, nightclubs, a town centre co-op, Spar, book shops, many charity shops and all of it's high end hair salons. Even the Starbucks slid off and the main post office was reduced from around 10 staff to 1 and shoved into a tiny toilet sized cubicle on the periphery of the borough.

These have been survived and replaced by - pop up eyebrow/lashes salons, fast food joints, poundshops, phone-unlocking shops, cash converter type shops, Primark (it's only remaining clothes store), Iceland, and the rest if boarded up. Interestingly a ton of privately owned car parks have taken over the area and hardly anyone uses them. It is unrecognisable from even 7 years ago. It now only attracts crime, heavy drinking, and a much less diverse population.

I know many towns have experienced closures of big brands, and things are simply changing (the net, everything online, etc) but this is really extreme, especially in comparison to a few years ago, it was not particularly suffering a decline. I do know that the council slowly sold off everything over the years, and have sent 2 huge shopping centres to their doom by selling to overseas investors who never came and filled them, so they are like enormous empty spaces that attract crime.

I don't currently live there but my remaining family that do say they never go in to town anymore, and feel forced to buy everything from standalone supermarkets in other areas.
I live in a fairly average town that has seen changes but there are also attempts at rejuvenation. Things are still ok and thriving in the centre. I am also aware that many towns are coping ok, taking the rough with the smooth, even though these issues have increased across the uk over all.

What could have happened to this one? Why so desolate and different? It is like the council just gave up sold it off and turned away. It never used to suffer so much crime, and the sound of police and ambulances is constant around the area now. The town centre was it's pride and joy, had so much put into it (festivals, events), so I can't understand how it got so bad.
Even the people who you see there now are all strangely similar (dress the same, same behaviours) and the diversity has vanished. Curiously rents are still super high and I have no idea who is taking them, if at all.

I feel sad about it because I grew up there, and have so many good memories of my teens when it was thriving, packed and full of interesting places to go and shop. The pubs were visited from far and wide, and it had a great college, access to learning, and much more culture. Now it is lucky to hold on to a handful of football clubs and that's the only interest left. Where and why did everything just die? It was previously so bloody alive.

You are probably right. I don't know why the issue isn't being debated more here, because its becoming a real shock when you return from overseas to the state that, at least in my local area, parts of the UK have become.

Again, I'm not an expert but inheritance tax in France is something like 60% calculated right from zero, and that seems to be me to help keep the property market cool and remove the obsession with inheriting a property so as to fund a house purchase.

And they probably do pay more income tax as the personal allowance is way smaller than in the UK. The UK is a real outlier in having such a massive personal allowance before income tax kicks in. I'd still be happier paying slightly more tax for much better services, as poor public services cost more in the long term e.g. expensive train and other travel costs, parking costs, etc..

Parking charges= greedy councils with no concessions for local residents either. I know this has impacted footfall in my town centre more than anything else. They just don’t learn.

Here in Australia we pay higher taxes than the U.K., but by and large people are ok with it because the services we get in return are good. Healthcare, schools etc are good, and things like libraries, child health centres, sports facilities, parks and playgrounds etc are well looked after and widely available.
We don’t pay inheritance tax here and honestly I don’t know the situation with aged care as i don’t have older relatives here.

I blame the council posts, do miss the point. Central government funding to local authorities has been cut savagely, year in year out for the past 13 years. How are councils empowered to make up the millions lost in revenue? Can anyone guess? Councils have very limited powers to raise revenue, basically they are sell off council owned assets or raise monies through council tax, rates and parking. Further the legal obligations on councils to provide social care services and the like are enormous. So there’s a perfect storm in most post industrial northern towns caused by the following:
A huge decline in properly paid, secure, full time blue collar jobs because manufacturing is now a tiny part of the modern U.K. economy.

In such circumstances towns become poorer; poor towns have a lot of social issues (populations with poorer health than wealthier areas, less educational attainment, high suicide rates, run down estates, widespread drug use amongst the young etc etc );
An abandonment by central government of adequate financial support to local government coupled with a population whose spending habits are inclined towards online shopping and the out of town mall. Hey presto a town that used to have a booming high street in the 50s 60s and 70s is in terminal decline.

I know one issue in our town (NE) is that buildings are owned by companies in London who set the rents. The rents don’t reflect what the incomes, spending is up here and so they stand empty. There should be more power to force them to fill shopping units.

Those buildings are most likely owned by pension funds, who invested heavily in commercial property in the past. Particularly the Co-op, if it’s smaller premises in towns rather than e.g. a modern office block in a city or a big shopping mall.

A PP described the position well: if the pension funds reduce the rents then the assets will need to be revalued downwards. Which most fund managers and trustees will try hard to avoid. Nobody wants to report a big drop in fund asset values on their watch, do they?

I don’t disagree that commercial rents are too high, but that’s why.

@Weonlyhavealoanofit great post. The lack of blue collar jobs for the traditional working class communities is a real failing of the U.K. Not everyone can or wants to work in finance or services and some of these poorer towns seem almost destined to stay poor forever which seems so wrong in a wealthy western country.

Aus does have some small towns that have found it increasingly tough though?

The larger towns are ok, lots of tourism for example, places to eat, vibrant etc

but in my tiny town the one major food producer closed and the town really suffered, I think it’s shrinking as a result

Oh absolutely @MarshaBradyo I’m absolutely sure that’s the case - even larger places like Adelaide have found it hard when they’ve lost major industries like Holden. There are some desperately poor parts of Australia as well. I think any community basing itself around one or two industries is a big risk.

I don't recognise that description of Southend High st. Yes, it has lost lots of shops like Debenhams, Topshop, Mothercare but it still has lots of the shops others are saying have closed down locally - Boots, M&S, Next, Waterstones, H&M, Patisserie Valerie. It also has restaurants and cafes. The street with lots of the restaurants on has just been done up with larger outside areas for the restaurants, trees and wooden benches. The square next to there has been completely re-tiled.

@pixie5121 I totally agree, I enjoyed living in places I've lived for that very reason- yes they did have Bills and White Stuff but had Poundland and Greggs too. There are a few places that are very gentrified but try buying a loo brush or a dustpan (ok Amazon is great for these things) and you are a bit stuffed. I popped into Bracknell yesterday (we live 8 miles away) just after reading this thread. My goodness whilst it's not exactly scenic or very interesting and it's lots of new estates - the Lexicon centre was suprisingly really nice and although mainly chains - it did have both a Matakan and TK Maxx as well as nice coffee places /bakers like Gail's . Clearly a cinema, bowling alley etc too. You've also got nice countryside around Ascot and Windsor within 10 minutes drive - I can see why this would appeal to some.

I honestly think people in government and councils would do well to actually read threads like this. So many pertinent points made. Business rates are not set by councils by the way - as I mentioned before one issue is that those who can have flexibility and a bit of cash tend to leave these deadly, dying places and all flock to the same places- creating a viscious circle!! Councils that are very left of centre and hugely Tory both create issues but in totally different ways. Personally everywhere I've lived that was a Lib Dem council was better cared for and yet still had facilities.

Far too much investment money put into commercial property at various points as it was seen as a safe return - it isn't now. Hence why companies like legal and general have started building and investing in residential flats to let in good areas.

@lameasahorse I agree. People used to do big monthly, fortnightly or weekly shops but I've noticed more people seem to get bits and bobs every few days or online shops etc - habits change- my H doesn't like the cinema much anymore , so we rarely go

I think another big point is unless you live somewhere touristy, or with a large student population or somewhere well enough off to have a ton of comfortably off SAHM non working mums/dads it's unlikely you are going to get both a vibrant interesting town centre and a population who all it seems want to work from home most of the time. Retail and leisure businesses rarely make profit just on weekend trade.

Allied to the way town and country planning is done in the UK, by zoning areas on the edge of towns and villages for development which results in it being turned into massive new housing estates by developers. So then you have entire communities stuck onto the edge of an existing place, most of the residents whom have little reason to use the centre, particularly because quite often there are no footpaths or buses laid on. And these developments are built with the car in mind, not as an integrated part of the town.

I have never known a country (other than the US) which has quite so many large housing estates as the UK. In most countries, smaller integrated shopping centres would be developed in these, with a limited range of shops, so there is still an incentive to go into the centre for jobs, banking, transport hubs, specialist or luxury items, etc.. But the extensive development of retail parks instead make this impossible. And of course out of town retail parks are a big moneyspinner in the short term for local authorities. There are so many retail parks near where I live that several of them are closing down or devoid of businesses despite offering free parking.

lameasahorse which is why the government keeps talking about getting people back to the office. They fail to recognise that things have changed. Working from home was already becoming more common and the pandemic accelerated this. And it is friends who work in private business who seem most likely to work from home.

Communities such as the one described in the OP originally grew up around the industry in the area to provide workers for it. Take away those industries and theres not a lot of point in those towns existing other than to provide housing. Theres also little point in urban centres with jobs in them which cost a fortune to commute to daily and which take a long time to get to. In many ways, its an outdated model if the commuter links and salaries fail to keep up with the cost and inconvenience of getting there. I think more people are realising that.

In other countries too, your commuting to work expenses are deductible from your income tax bill. This is something that would help countless workers in the UK, but its not even a blip on the horizon and most people are unaware of it.

Yep, lots of councils have bought into the "green" agenda and are making life hard/expensive for motorists to encourage them to stop using their cars. Unfortunately, they havn't had the sense to understand that before you do that, you need to put alternatives in place, i.e. decent public transport (i.e. affordable, convenient, safe and comfortable). You need carrot AND stick, not just the stick!

@AchatAVendre

In other countries too, your commuting to work expenses are deductible from your income tax bill. This is something that would help countless workers in the UK, but its not even a blip on the horizon and most people are unaware of it.

I've said a few times on here and other fora that if the Govt want to encourage people to get back to working in town centres, then they should give tax relief on public transport costs. It's a double winner - get more people using public transport (greener than cars and help pay for better public transport) AND get more people working in town centres thus helping the town centre economy. It's a no brainer. I'd draw the line at allowing a deduction for commuting costs for private cars as that goes against the green agenda and worsens traffic congestion etc).

@BlessedByTheShitFairy , I thought Wigan straight away. I live in Wigan and I think the town centre has been declining for years.
Personally, I go into town about 3 times per year because there isn't really much to draw me in. That. and I live within walking distance of 3 retail parks and 3 supermarkets so I have little need for the town centre.

@lameasahorse Yep I agree- I think only certain towns and cities will thrive for the reasons I said- they actually have points of interest or large student population etc- many others places would be better redeveloped as you suggested-- but no one will be making money from them! So don't think it will happen.

Great article by Sathnam Sanghera in the Times today talking about exactly what we’ve been saying here, in the context of his hometown, Wolverhampton.
some really interesting initiatives like shops that have been boarded up for a year having to be offered to other people to use by their landlords at auction. I think this is a brilliant initiative as it stops absent landlords just letting them stand empty until the land is worth more.
He also talks about the impact of public transport (or the lack of it) and the need to have long term non political plans for an area.
We need more people like him in politics, it’s a really well thought out and heartfelt article.

Too much rugby leeeeeague, not enough library reeeeead. (read in voice of Reiner Wolfcastle)

That’s a paddlin’

I think the problem is that we don't produce anything now.
Someone mentioned Australia - they sell billions of tons or iron ore and coal to China - so you have a high base to start from - then you add tax to that. We haven't anything to add tax to (we do, financial services but somehow that has had a huge hit since 2008 and we ended up with austerity (it was the taxpayer who bailed out the banks)).
France has nuclear power, Germany has a cheap industiral base thanks to Russian gas and oil, Canada has mining and shale gas, US has oil, gas, coal, shale, Norway has gas and savings, we haven't.
All of our teachers, nurses, doctors, lecturers, civil servants - yes you work hard and deserve higher pay but - Ahem, where is that money coming from, from another teacher? nurse? doctor? 's tax- that won't work. The pile will only shrink.