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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to ask why people are so weird about cry it out?

408 replies

Worried675 · 24/05/2022 06:34

OK, I know already how this is going to go and what views about this are on Mumsnet, but my question I guess is why people are so against cry it out methods? Recent research showed no differences in babies' behaviour/happiness/attachment etc. between cry it out and other sleep training methods. I'm always surprised by how strongly people are against it, especially as anyone born in the 80s or before probably were trained that way.

Enlighten me! Is using cry it out unreasonable? Why/why not?

OP posts:
SleeplessInEngland · 24/05/2022 11:59

I'll go with my 8 years of psychology qualifications / experience.

Ah yes, bragging. That always makes people come around. 😀

But sure, agree to disagree.

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:01

@Ahurricaneofjacarandas

There is a difference though between learning to self soothe and being left to scream and the 'fight or flight' part of your brain tske over until it basically exhausts them. If you just leave them in distress then they aren't learning to soothe. The emotional side of their brain has taken over to such an extent that they can't 'learn' anything. They might eventually learn that nobody comes whether they scream or not and to internalise that panic (in sleeping and probably other stressful things in life). However they won't necessarily have learned an effective way of going to sleep gently. If you want to acheive true 'self soothing' then IMO you do this by being with them in their room and a gentle 'shhhh' or a hand on their chest. You don't just leave them and hope they learn something by themselves that even adults find difficult. That's the difference

Agreed.

Pyri · 24/05/2022 12:04

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 11:30

@Pyri

But the Ferber method (for example which is CC not CIO) usually only takes a few days to work for the baby to sleep through. So how is that “consistently not meeting the baby’s needs”? If you spend every other waking minute and hour meeting their needs for 9/10/11 months how does a few nights of leaving them to cry and going back a few minutes later damage them?

I am not referring to particular cry it out methods though am I? I am answering the poster. Also if you read my posts I said consistently not meeting a babies needs (and not one or two times).

You literally said:

”And actually it doesn't need to be abuse to result in attachment issues. If you're consistently not meeting your child's needs (ie the cry it out method) then yes that will result in some attachment issues. They're learning that their basic needs won't be met by their primary caregiver.”

but cry it out or ferber only need to be used a few times to get results so what are you talking about? It isn’t possible to “consistently not meet your child’s needs” by using CIO / CC because it only takes a few times to work?

if you’re talking about not meeting baby’s needs by not feeding them / comforting them when ill etc then I’m sure that causes attachment issues, but that’s not what the thread is about is it

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:06

@SnackSizeRaisin

Attachment theory has nothing to do with sleep training That's probably why you weren't taught about it. The research on sleep training says that it's not detrimental. As you presumably know if you've looked into it.

The original poster didn't mention sleep training. It was cry it out. I'm not discussing sleep training.

There is a link between letting a baby cry it out and the attachment theory because consistently letting a baby / child cry it out causes attachment issues.

Your not meeting the babies needs so eventually they will stop crying because they learn that they will just be ignored. So their fear is still there they're just not articulating that fear and instead it's being internalised.

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:07

You're

Topgub · 24/05/2022 12:08

Pyri · 24/05/2022 11:25

But the Ferber method (for example which is CC not CIO) usually only takes a few days to work for the baby to sleep through. So how is that “consistently not meeting the baby’s needs”? If you spend every other waking minute and hour meeting their needs for 9/10/11 months how does a few nights of leaving them to cry and going back a few minutes later damage them?

This

Pyri · 24/05/2022 12:08

pbdr · 24/05/2022 11:44

"
But the Ferber method (for example which is CC not CIO) usually only takes a few days to work for the baby to sleep through. So how is that “consistently not meeting the baby’s needs”? If you spend every other waking minute and hour meeting their needs for 9/10/11 months how does a few nights of leaving them to cry and going back a few minutes later damage them?"

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4643535/

Sleep trained babies wake up just as frequently overnight as non sleep trained babies. Their sleep is only perceived as being better by parents because they no longer signal to their parents when they wake. It seems unlikely that these babies have suddenly stopped having physical/social/emotional needs overnight, but by being left to cry they have learned that there is no point in crying out for their parents overnight as their cries will be ignored. So while it's just a few nights of crying, it's not just a few nights of needs not being met overnight. That is ongoing but as the babies have given up and are no longer vocal about their unmet needs the parents assume that means everything is fine.

This is just absolute nonsense. All CC does is remove the sleep crutch / association and lets the baby associate their cot = sleep and that they don’t need to be rocked / fed / patted to sleep.

Do you think babies who have been sleep trained never ever cry ever again because they think their needs won’t be met? Really?

My children have been CIOd and it’s better because I know that when they wake in the night it’s for a reason like illness, teething etc. believe me, they still cry about being hungry / wet / cold / uncomfortable/ ill etc

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:11

@Pyri

Oh my goodness!!! I am talking about letting a child cry it out consistently!!!!! (And not any particular sleep training).

Yes if you consistently let a baby / child cry it out CONSISTENTLY (so there is a pattern of behaviour here - the behaviour being that you're ignoring the crying consistently) it will result in attachment issues / trauma etc

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR METHOD OF SLEEP TRAINING nor am
I interested in it.

KingofLoss · 24/05/2022 12:11

People as a whole aren't very good about or motivated to look up evidence around contentious topics. Most parents tend to get their information about what's good/bad from peers. I remember during pregnancy my friends all talking about how horrific sleep training is, how damaging it is, how cruel it is, and just going along with it assuming that it must be true for them to feel so strongly about it. Then during pregnancy while reading up on the evidence around various parenting decisions I was surprised to find that that isn't the case. There's a wealth of evidence it's effective, and no evidence it's harmful. I adjusted my view in light of this, but some won't as they'll hold onto what they previously believed.

It's one of those things I think, nobody HAS to sleep train, and I don't judge people who choose not to (though I do feel sorry for their child if they're an awful sleeper and nothing is being done to try and improve it), but it's important that people aren't fed misinformation so they can make the right decision for their child. Some would choose not to sleep train even if they understood the evidence behind it, and that's fine. But it's great to let people know it's an option and that there's nothing backing up the assertion that it's damaging or impacts attachment and so forth.

It's an emotive topic but I've definitely noticed the tide changing and people being more educated on things like sleep and infant feeding (the 'breast is best' movement thankfully is dying a slow death and there's so much more awareness of the fact that there is no universal 'best' for every family, it's so individual and so many of the stated benefits of breastfeeding aren't backed up by the evidence). It's nice to see! Parents are already under so much pressure without misinformation to boot.

It's human nature also to find it difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand why they might choose to make the decision they do. It's unfortunate that in many parenting forums when a new parent posts saying that their 6m old baby is sleeping 30m at a time and they're at the end of their rope and their mental health is shattered and they can't even think about returning to work and they can't drive safely and their marriage is in tatters... that they response is often 'what did you expect? This is normal. It will pass. Keep going' even if the person has clearly stated they can't keep going. It's helpful to balance out that kind of normalising support with information about what they can DO to improve the situation.

I don't think everyone understands the level of privilege it requires to be able to tolerate, indefinitely, for months at a time, being woken up every hour throughout the night. Many people have jobs that they need to be rested to do safely, my DH could literally kill someone at work if he went in exhausted. They might have older children to care for, or have no choice but to drive as the nearest supermarket is miles away. They might have no family or friends around to 'take a shift' overnight, or they may be a single parent. They might (and this is common) have mental or physical health problems that are exacerbated by poor sleep, and their mental health might be pushed into a dangerous place if they continue to be unable to get adequate rest.

Sleep is a human need and it's easy if you have a baby that sleeps two hour stretches through the night to think sleep training parents are being cruel or just wusses who don't realise that parenting continues throughout the night. Until you're in the shoes of someone who absolutely cannot continue one more night the way things are, you shouldn't judge. That's not to say that's the only circumstance where it's appropriate, of course, it's absolutely normal and natural to want to help your baby get better quality sleep regardless of what else is going on. To me it's a fundamental part of parenting. Good quality restful sleep is crucial for wellbeing and brain development and while you may choose to wait it out and see if sleep gets better eventually it's not the only option. Anecdotally I have several friends who didn't sleep train their terrible sleepers and now they're toddlers waking every two hours throughout the night needing to be fed or rocked back to sleep they desperately wish they had.

SnackSizeRaisin · 24/05/2022 12:11

pbdr · 24/05/2022 11:44

"
But the Ferber method (for example which is CC not CIO) usually only takes a few days to work for the baby to sleep through. So how is that “consistently not meeting the baby’s needs”? If you spend every other waking minute and hour meeting their needs for 9/10/11 months how does a few nights of leaving them to cry and going back a few minutes later damage them?"

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4643535/

Sleep trained babies wake up just as frequently overnight as non sleep trained babies. Their sleep is only perceived as being better by parents because they no longer signal to their parents when they wake. It seems unlikely that these babies have suddenly stopped having physical/social/emotional needs overnight, but by being left to cry they have learned that there is no point in crying out for their parents overnight as their cries will be ignored. So while it's just a few nights of crying, it's not just a few nights of needs not being met overnight. That is ongoing but as the babies have given up and are no longer vocal about their unmet needs the parents assume that means everything is fine.

As the proud owner of a sleep trained baby I can tell you that you are completely wrong about this. My baby certainly does still cry at night for various reasons including done a poo, can't find bunny, cold, hunger, loud scary noises. He cries at night every few nights perhaps. The difference is that he no longer cries just because he's tired, frustrated and can't get back to sleep by himself.

LeeMucklowesCurtains · 24/05/2022 12:13

I was born in 1980. I co slept with my parents until I was 4/5, and I’ve done that with my three children too as I remember the feeling of being so safe and happy.

So that experience made me not want to ever leave my own children to cry.

Its just not in me to do it.

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:14

The posters original message is referring to 'Cry it out' and not sleep training.

Cry it out to me is just letting the baby cry.

SnackSizeRaisin · 24/05/2022 12:17

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:06

@SnackSizeRaisin

Attachment theory has nothing to do with sleep training That's probably why you weren't taught about it. The research on sleep training says that it's not detrimental. As you presumably know if you've looked into it.

The original poster didn't mention sleep training. It was cry it out. I'm not discussing sleep training.

There is a link between letting a baby cry it out and the attachment theory because consistently letting a baby / child cry it out causes attachment issues.

Your not meeting the babies needs so eventually they will stop crying because they learn that they will just be ignored. So their fear is still there they're just not articulating that fear and instead it's being internalised.

I'm pretty sure the original poster meant cry it out in the sleep training sense, rather than never ever responding to a baby crying in the night, which I agree is neglect and not what loving parents do. If you are saying that neglect causes attachment issues I wouldn't disagree. Maybe go back and read the OP's posts as I think you are arguing at cross purposes.

KingofLoss · 24/05/2022 12:19

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:14

The posters original message is referring to 'Cry it out' and not sleep training.

Cry it out to me is just letting the baby cry.

Sleep training is the umbrella term used for different methods. Extinction is one of them (same method as what people call CIO). There are others, such as Ferber, disappearing chair method and so forth. They're all sleep training. Sleep training simply refers to allowing your baby to learn how to fall asleep without assistance.

Interestingly, the evidence shows that the method you use doesn't much matter, there's no evidence of harm caused by any of them, so if extinction suits someone's child better, then it's absolutely fine to use. It's just preference. We used Ferber as I wanted to be able to let him know I was still there. Some people find check-ins upset the baby more so choose to do extinction.

Pyri · 24/05/2022 12:19

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:14

The posters original message is referring to 'Cry it out' and not sleep training.

Cry it out to me is just letting the baby cry.

The thread is about cry it out in the context of sleeping

No one, but no one, has said that cry it out or long term abuse or neglect is ok. I’m not sure why you are arguing the point that insinuates that anyone has said that.

posters on here often mix up CC and CIO, that’s why several other posters and I have referenced that

SnackSizeRaisin · 24/05/2022 12:20

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:14

The posters original message is referring to 'Cry it out' and not sleep training.

Cry it out to me is just letting the baby cry.

Cry it out is a sleep training method. You don't seem to know very much s out sleep training for someone with such strong opinions

KingofLoss · 24/05/2022 12:20

SnackSizeRaisin · 24/05/2022 12:17

I'm pretty sure the original poster meant cry it out in the sleep training sense, rather than never ever responding to a baby crying in the night, which I agree is neglect and not what loving parents do. If you are saying that neglect causes attachment issues I wouldn't disagree. Maybe go back and read the OP's posts as I think you are arguing at cross purposes.

It's such a myth that sleep training means you stop responding to your baby in the night. We continued with a night feed for months after using Ferber at six months. Thanks to sleep training we were able to tell whether he was crying because he had a need that we could meet, such as a feed or a nappy change, because he no longer had to cry to get us to come and assist him back to sleep.

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:20

@SnackSizeRaisin

I'm pretty sure the original poster meant cry it out in the sleep training sense, rather than never ever responding to a baby crying in the night, which I agree is neglect and not what loving parents do. If you are saying that neglect causes attachment issues I wouldn't disagree. Maybe go back and read the OP's posts as I think you are arguing at cross purposes.

It didn't say that in the original post though did it. I don't have time to read all the posts I've spent too much time on this already 🙂

I choose to co sleep that's how I got over having a baby who would always wake up. It wasn't my preference but it worked for us x

Pyri · 24/05/2022 12:22

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:20

@SnackSizeRaisin

I'm pretty sure the original poster meant cry it out in the sleep training sense, rather than never ever responding to a baby crying in the night, which I agree is neglect and not what loving parents do. If you are saying that neglect causes attachment issues I wouldn't disagree. Maybe go back and read the OP's posts as I think you are arguing at cross purposes.

It didn't say that in the original post though did it. I don't have time to read all the posts I've spent too much time on this already 🙂

I choose to co sleep that's how I got over having a baby who would always wake up. It wasn't my preference but it worked for us x

The OP says:

”I know already how this is going to go and what views about this are on Mumsnet, but my question I guess is why people are so against cry it out methods? Recent research showed no differences in babies' behaviour/happiness/attachment etc. between cry it out and other sleep training methods”

Its literally right there - she says BETWEEN CRY IT OUT AND OTHER SLEEP TRAINING METHODS in her OP!

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:24

@SnackSizeRaisin

Cry it out is a sleep training method. You don't seem to know very much s out sleep training for someone with such strong opinions

You don't need to be so rude. Would you speak to me like that in real life. Highly doubt it.

'Cry it out' actually read that aloud. Doesn't sound very maternal does it 😆. Maybe you sleep trainers need to change the name.

My opinions weren't based on knowledge of sleep training. 😜

Pickabearanybear · 24/05/2022 12:24

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

KingofLoss · 24/05/2022 12:25

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:24

@SnackSizeRaisin

Cry it out is a sleep training method. You don't seem to know very much s out sleep training for someone with such strong opinions

You don't need to be so rude. Would you speak to me like that in real life. Highly doubt it.

'Cry it out' actually read that aloud. Doesn't sound very maternal does it 😆. Maybe you sleep trainers need to change the name.

My opinions weren't based on knowledge of sleep training. 😜

'Doesn't sound very maternal'

Funny how you're automatically judging mothers for needing/wanting to sleep train rather than fathers. Wonder why that is?

hangrylady · 24/05/2022 12:27

Because hearing your baby crying and leaving it goes against all natural maternal instincts.

SleeplessInEngland · 24/05/2022 12:28

My opinions weren't based on knowledge of sleep training

Yeah, that's become ever more apparent.

Bambi7 · 24/05/2022 12:29

@KingofLoss

^Doesn't sound very maternal'

Funny how you're automatically judging mothers for needing/wanting to sleep train rather than fathers. Wonder why that is?^

Are you for real?

Picking out the fact I've said maternal 😂

In my experience my father didn't participate in any of my care and with my children it was all me so 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's funny you should say I'm judging because im
Actually known as being very nonjudgmental. I am
Having an opinion on people who leave their babies / child to 'cry it out'.

I also said it's important not to shame anyone for having left their child a few times to cry to emotional regulate as looking after ourselves is important too.

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