To not feel proud of my country at the moment?

[Livingtothefull]

I really want to be proud - there are plenty of things to be proud of in the UK (great people/culture/heritage) - but the way we are governed at the moment just sickens me.

We have a liar and a criminal as Prime Minister, I can't bear the sight or sound of him now. 'Partygate' showed us just how much contempt he has for the British public. People are facing huge cost of living rises and poverty, and the Government offered nothing to help address this in the Queen's speech.

The latest is their proposal to break international law.

By the way the Monarchy was shown up as the useless and empty institution it is through the prorogation of Parliament episode, far from a supposed guardian of democracy. I don't have anything against the RF personally, but as an institution it has presided over all of this and yet has nothing to say about it all.

I am sick of hearing about the Jubilee as well, I see nothing to celebrate in what we have all been through over the past couple of years and are facing now. 'Rich privileged woman lives a long time' does not mean anything imo, in the context of the huge numbers of people who have died before their time due to Covid. Many of them elderly and vulnerable people in care homes - where the Government has recently been found (again) to have broken the law by putting them in harm's way.

@Userg1234

Love people like you.....so negative. perhaps some of us like the royals, not resent and envy them. I bet your from a very middle class background, university, but resent that others have done better than you! I think that whilst there were errors we got through covid ok. Remember that we actually counted deaths very strictly many countries did not.

Economically we have spent a shit load to save jobs and push on and we will get through this year and come out a much stronger country than most of the western world will do. Remember, we have had a world wide pandemic, a war in Europe and massive problems of economic supply resulting from them. We are a great nation. If you don't like living here don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

100% this Well said! As that poster said @Livingtothefull you know what to do if you don't like it here.

@Lazerbeen you know how when you say you live in *insert name of leafy green suburb with pretty little shops and strong community spirit, people would go 'ahhh thats a really nice place to live, lucky you'. I would say that if you say you live/come from the UK and foreigners say that, you would probably feel a little proud/puff your chest up a little.

Post's like the OP's always bring out the defenders and those who seem to want to race to the bottom with examples from regimes and beleaguered states that will never present as any comparison to Britain.

Just because we don't string up gays in trees (blithe example) it doesn't mean the UK is a great place to live anymore.

Instead of telling people to leave and reaching for extreme examples like life in North Korea, everyone should listen to each other.

The UK has been on a massive downslide for a while. I barely recognise it anymore. I am a resident of a EU country but I am and will remain British.

This government and Brexit is bringing a special and once strong nation to its knees. It makes me sad watching on.

To deny it is foolish.

You do realise you are dense responding to someone like this.

How can there be any meaningful dialogue about the state of this nation when anyone who objects - with legitimate reasons - is told to leave.

Easy to see how Brexit got its teeth.

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder said:

"Neither the UK or GB are countries."

You're incorrect about the UK which IS a country and recognised as such by the EU and United States, for example.

Great Britain isn't a country, that's correct.

"I'm Scottish, we don't vote for Tories..."

Except Scotland clearly DOES vote for the Conservatives as they've been the second biggest party in Scotland for a few years now.

".....and we didn't vote for brexit."

Quite apart from the fact Scotland wasn't named on the ballot paper, but Leave literally won the UK vote in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

"We have a devolved govt that is trying hard to mitigate for the cruel policies of the Tories but have one arm tied behind their back."

Are they? Highest drug death rate in Europe for the first time under the SNP and educationa shambles under them too. This wasn't the case before devolution or under a devolved Labour administration. Indeed, SNP have tripled any austerity from Westminster themselves in order to stoke a grievance which hasn't worked.

"I'm proud to be Scottish and would like Scotland to leave the union with England join the EU as soon as possible. We can't allow ourselves to be sucked any deeper into what the people of England vote for."

It's a union with Wales and Northern Ireland too, you know. People in Scotland are still not convinced by the SNP on the economy, especially since their own Growth Commission report has been quietly dropped due to being austerity on stilts.

England and their electorate are not somehow the black sheep of the British family, so let's not talk in those terms, shall we?

"We have a liar and a criminal as Prime Minister..."

Except he doesn't have a criminal record since its a Fixed Penalty Notice. Better to be accurate otherwise you'll hurt your own point.

"People are facing huge cost of living rises and poverty, and the Government offered nothing to help address this in the Queen's speech."

Cost of living is a problem outside the UK and poverty is also on the increase in Europe. Did you know the UK has a decrease in millionaires whereas France, for example, saw an increase?

Unsurprisingly, Germany has more millionaires than any other country in the EU and Europe.

You'll find that inequalities between the rich and poor has been increasing across the EU as well.

An excerpt from an EU Parliament report dated 6th April 2022:

"Since the onset of the crisis, income inequality in the EU has increased because the process of income convergence between countries has stalled and income inequalities within countries have expanded. Pay and income inequality remains a concern and the working poor are still a substantial group among workers in the EU."

The problems in the UK are simply not unique and is observed right across the EU. The biggest economy in Europe is Germany and they have about the same number of food banks as the UK.

That tells you we aren't the only ones with problems governments have so far failed to address adequately.

As for the Queen's Speech, we're told measures to address the cost of living will be available in the Autumn which is when it'll increase again. Let's see.

"By the way the Monarchy was shown up as the useless and empty institution it is through the prorogation of Parliament episode, far from a supposed guardian of democracy. I don't have anything against the RF personally, but as an institution it has presided over all of this and yet has nothing to say about it all."

The Monarchy has no direct involvement in politics and is certainly not supreme. Parliament is supreme which is why the door is slammed in the face of Black Rod every time Parliament is opened.

The Monarchy presides over nothing. The actual role of the Monarch is to be the final line of defence against a would-be dictator which is why the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch.

Not the people or government.

Think you'll find millions in other countries will have similar views about their own countries as you do ours. And millions will hold the opposite views.

DownNative The problems in the UK are simply not unique and is observed right across the EU. The biggest economy in Europe is Germany and they have about the same number of food banks as the UK.

Having lived in The Netherlands (and non-EU Switzerland) recently and currently buying a house in France, at least other countries do basic things, such as collect rubbish correctly, cut grass verges (they get once per year here which means the footpath outside my home is unusable and I have to walk on the road), provide affordable regular trains, have good standard roads, have health systems that doesn't do things such as limit cataract surgery to one eye or "fix" kidney stones not by removing the stone but by giving you a catheter to live with for years. Its just little things like that that all add up. For instance, theres also no footbridge across the dual carriageway where I live near for miles. If you want to cross it, you literally have to dice with cars doing 70mph. Its as if things like underpasses and bridges hadn't been invented. I live in Scotland, and theres not even motorways between many of the cities. Theres not even any plans for there to be. Its like progress stalled here at some point in the eighties and you're expected not to notice.

The context of my post you quoted was the reality that inequality between rich and poor has increased in Europe.

As well as the fact Europe saw an increase in millionaires whereas the UK didn't.

There's a reason I don't pay much attention to people's anecdotes and anecdotes lead to logical fallacies.

If we just go by the UN HDI, the UK is ranked 10th in Europe. You mentioned the Netherlands, we're very close to their score - just 0.012 points behind them. France, on the other hand, is much lower than the UK and is 0.031 points behind us.

By this measure, the UK is much higher placed than many like you seem to think.

Bit like, France,Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Germany, scandanvia etc etc

Good luck in France, because obviously the systems there run superbly😂😂😂😂

The UK wasn't the only country in Europe to have had an empire, you know.

Germany
Austro-Hungarian
Portugal
Spain
France
Netherlands
Italy
Denmark
Belgium

Very, very few countries in the world weren't ruled by European states. And I don't think many of them would agree with your implication that our culture isn't something to be proud of.

Yes?

Don't be ridiculous! Northern Ireland didn't have a civil war last time and it certainly won't this time. Most of us either laugh or shake our heads at people outside Northern Ireland suggesting such a thing, actually.

Saoradh/New IRA are on their knees and have no widespread support. Neither do Loyalist paramilitaries.

Yes, I'm from Northern Ireland. No-one is going to go to anything like a civil war over the protocol, Good God!

"We have a liar and a criminal as Prime Minister..."

'Except he doesn't have a criminal record since its a Fixed Penalty Notice. Better to be accurate otherwise you'll hurt your own point'.

That is a fair point and I accept I should probably not have used that phrase. However he has broken the law (the first PM to do so, and broken the law he himself put in place), demeaned his office, repeatedly lied about it and insulted all of us who made sacrifices and suffered losses due to Covid.

"People are facing huge cost of living rises and poverty, and the Government offered nothing to help address this in the Queen's speech."

'Cost of living is a problem outside the UK and poverty is also on the increase in Europe. Did you know the UK has a decrease in millionaires whereas France, for example, saw an increase?

'Unsurprisingly, Germany has more millionaires than any other country in the EU and Europe'.

I don't think the number of millionaires per se is an indicator that poverty is on the increase. That would be about a number of people below the poverty line as a proportion of the population, together with a concentration of wealth in fewer hands.

It is also unsurprising that Germany has more millionaires than other EU countries, as it has a larger population.

'You'll find that inequalities between the rich and poor has been increasing across the EU as well.

'An excerpt from an EU Parliament report dated 6th April 2022:

"Since the onset of the crisis, income inequality in the EU has increased because the process of income convergence between countries has stalled and income inequalities within countries have expanded. Pay and income inequality remains a concern and the working poor are still a substantial group among workers in the EU."

'The problems in the UK are simply not unique and is observed right across the EU. The biggest economy in Europe is Germany and they have about the same number of food banks as the UK.

'That tells you we aren't the only ones with problems governments have so far failed to address adequately.'

I have not claimed that ours is the only country with problems or that a perfect country exists anywhere. However we have to engage with our own problems.

I agree however that it is helpful to look at how other comparable countries are doing to judge the effectiveness of our own.

The House of Commons site itself refers to figures which suggest that 'the UK has among the highest levels of income inequality in the European Union'. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7484/

Also, Germany may have about the same number of food banks as us but again, have a much higher population. However, on the subject of comparisons with Germany: their Covid death toll was far lower than that of the UK despite their higher population and despite being largely landlocked at the heart of Europe. That is more evidence of government failure.

'As for the Queen's Speech, we're told measures to address the cost of living will be available in the Autumn which is when it'll increase again. Let's see.' Yes we'll see.

"By the way the Monarchy was shown up as the useless and empty institution it is through the prorogation of Parliament episode, far from a supposed guardian of democracy. I don't have anything against the RF personally, but as an institution it has presided over all of this and yet has nothing to say about it all."

'The Monarchy has no direct involvement in politics and is certainly not supreme. Parliament is supreme which is why the door is slammed in the face of Black Rod every time Parliament is opened.

'The Monarchy presides over nothing. The actual role of the Monarch is to be the final line of defence against a would-be dictator which is why the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch.

'Not the people or government.'

You see that is all part of the problem of the Monarchy imo. How exactly would the Monarch be the final line of defence against a dictator? Why do the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch and not the people? That seems more of a recipe for dictatorship if anything.

As in my original post, when it really mattered - the prorogation of Parliament - the Monarch proved to be useless as a defence. We had to rely on the Courts, not our Head of State, to find the prorogation to be unlawful. Returning to comparisons with other countries; many have written constitutions and elected Heads of State with real power to hold politicians accountable to the constitutions and act as effective arbiters of the democratic system.

Just to be clear: I am criticising the institution of Monarchy not the person occupying the role as Monarch.

'Think you'll find millions in other countries will have similar views about their own countries as you do ours. And millions will hold the opposite views'.* *

I am sure that is true. However I am concerned here with the problems of my own country which we need to engage with and try to solve.

"That is a fair point and I accept I should probably not have used that phrase. However he has broken the law (the first PM to do so, and broken the law he himself put in place), demeaned his office, repeatedly lied about it and insulted all of us who made sacrifices and suffered losses due to Covid."

And yet ZERO criminal record. Covid laws weren't that kind of law.

"I don't think the number of millionaires per se is an indicator that poverty is on the increase. That would be about a number of people below the poverty line as a proportion of the population, together with a concentration of wealth in fewer hands."

The rate of millionaires has a direct impact on the level of poverty as well. 96.5 million people in the EU were in poverty in 2020 and this has since increased.

"It is also unsurprising that Germany has more millionaires than other EU countries, as it has a larger population."

I did say "unsurprisingly, Germany....". But if we measured it by share of people, then Switzerland has the most millionaires with almost 15% of the population having assets worth £1million or more.

Population size is not necessarily the biggest indicator.

"I have not claimed that ours is the only country with problems or that a perfect country exists anywhere."

This thread is full of posts suggesting exactly that and it's not surprising some picked up on that implication from your posts too.

"I agree however that it is helpful to look at how other comparable countries are doing to judge the effectiveness of our own."

Whilst we do and have to deal with our own problems, it's very helpful to compare and contrast us with other European states.

Suddenly, we look miles better than what's suggested throughout this thread! The UK is still one of the best countries in Europe in which to live.

"The House of Commons site itself refers to figures which suggest that 'the UK has among the highest levels of income inequality in the European Union'."

Yes, it's similar to the core countries of the EU. In fact, the EU as a whole has a slightly higher income inequality than the UK. However, income inequality as measured by GINI is of limited use as some of the poorest countries in Europe have the lowest income inequality rates.

That's where the UN HDI is much more useful as it looks at several different areas including inequality. For Europe, the UK is at 10th place.

Population size doesn't necessarily mean a country will have more or fewer food banks than another country.

"However, on the subject of comparisons with Germany: their Covid death toll was far lower than that of the UK despite their higher population and despite being largely landlocked at the heart of Europe. That is more evidence of government failure."

A more likely explanation is that the UK is a much more densely populated country than Germany. We are three places above Germany in the population density table.

Another is how the UK and Germany reported their cases as well as rates. That matters because the UK has been stricter in recording data than many, including Germany.

The WHO has data on the first two years of the pandemic. According to them, Germany had a higher excess death rate direct and indirect due to covid than the UK.

According to the WHO, most countries have underreported and several don't like WHOs findings.

"You see that is all part of the problem of the Monarchy imo. How exactly would the Monarch be the final line of defence against a dictator?"

Suppose we had PM who became a dictator, the Monarch would be able to command the Armed Forces to depose that person. Same happens for a dictator from outwith the UK.

The Armed Forces are in no doubt to whom allegiance is owed in that case.

"Why do the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch and not the people? That seems more of a recipe for dictatorship if anything."

Why would they pledge allegiance to the people? That would be chaotic in batte or times of emergency. Crucially, the Monarch cannot become a dictator because the Crown Prerogative is exercised by the democratically elected PM.

Essentially, the PM and Monarch are able to provide checks and balances to each other, if needed.

"As in my original post, when it really mattered - the prorogation of Parliament - the Monarch proved to be useless as a defence. We had to rely on the Courts, not our Head of State, to find the prorogation to be unlawful."

No, you're simply misunderstanding what the Constitutional role of the Monarch is - to deny power to any would-be usurper and to be a figurehead for the UK under the Government's orders.

It is the role of the Supreme Court to rule on constitutional matters. Even the Scottish Parliament was found to have acted beyond their powers.

We have a Constitutional Monarchy and the Monarch has a passive role except for the highly unlikely situation aforementioned.

"Returning to comparisons with other countries; many have written constitutions and elected Heads of State with real power to hold politicians accountable to the constitutions and act as effective arbiters of the democratic system."

You're suggesting here that the UK doesn't have a written constitution which is completely wrong. We actually do - it's written in Acts of Parliament. Unlike the United States, our written constitution is uncodified which allows the UK to change constitutional laws very quickly if needed.

As for other Heads of State, the Irish President is very similar to the UK's Head Of State. These are known as Ceremonial Heads of State. Germany, Italy and India are three more examples of these. Parliamentary democracies almost all have this type of Head Of State.

Some, like the US President, are known as Executive Heads Of State and are also Head Of Government. These ones have wide ranging powers.

Others, like France, have a Semi-Executive Head Of State role. Macron has to share leadership with a Prime Minister.

So, there's different models and roles. Each have their own pros and cons. The UK's checks and balances works well whereas the United States' works too well leading to gridlock in Congress as well as being extraordinarily difficult to alter the constitution as seen with gun control, for example.

The UK is ranked above these European states in the UN HDI:

Belgium
Austria
Liechtenstein
Slovenia
Luxembourg
Spain
France
Malta
Estonia
Italy
Greece
Cyprus
Lithuania
Poland
Andorra
Latvia
Portugal
Slovakia
Hungary
Croatia
Montenegro
Romania
Russia
Belarus
Turkey
Bulgaria
Georgia
Serbia
Albania
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Ukraine
Armenia
North Macedonia

You get the picture!

Only nine European states are ranked above the United Kingdom. So, if the UK is a "shit show"....what would you call the above countries?!

The UK is currently ranked 10th best country in which to live in Europe. That's not a "shit show"....

DownNative "Returning to comparisons with other countries; many have written constitutions and elected Heads of State with real power to hold politicians accountable to the constitutions and act as effective arbiters of the democratic system."

Most other European states have a modern single document written constitution and constitutional courts. In the UK, we have a political and legal constitution which means that the separation of powers is somewhat weak in comparison to other western European democracies. Parliament can change the constitution all too easily in the UK and therefore, until it is interpreted by the courts, no-one knows exactly what it is at crucial moments. Such as Brexit. It seems to be a characteristic of Anglo-American legal systems at the moment at least. Also noticeable in the UK is that the constitution can be changed by simple majority (e.g. the Brexit vote) and not by special majority. And constitutional rights can be so easily lost. The Human Rights Act is being revised...

We have very weak powers in the UK regarding accountability, because we lack a constitutional court and instead have a very limited form of judicial review. And we have a number of MPs who have criminal records and aren't forced to resign. And apparently, a breach of the ministerial code requires mens rea, i.e. intention, in order to trigger resignation, which is a bizarre concept in any other non-criminal field. I say apparently, because it isn't really clear from the legislation and appears to be a non-legislative addition.

"You're suggesting here that the UK doesn't have a written constitution which is completely wrong. We actually do - it's written in Acts of Parliament. Unlike the United States, our written constitution is uncodified which allows the UK to change constitutional laws very quickly if needed.*

Its not a fully written constitution and the written part is spread over a huge number of different pieces of legislation. But the UK has a part written, part unwritten constitution. It has documents which make up part of the UK constitution (such as the Magna Carta!) and unwritten checks and balances. Its very difficult to actually formulate a citizen's constitutional rights in the UK and given the lack of accountability of most public bodies in the UK, you have to now think that that is a very bad thing.

What on earth is wrong with written single document constitutions? The whole of the rest of Europe has them. They don't tinker with them nearly as much as the UK does with theirs, so citizens can be reasonably sure what the law is and plan ahead with reasonable certainty. I think the UK could do with a new constitution but unfortunately that seems highly unlikely and unlike almost every other civilised country in the world, it will just have a to make do with the cobbled together disorganised mass that is the UK constitution (whatever it is at any given time).

I agree. 90s were pretty good in the UK.
Lots of problems now, sadly.

I get what you're saying about hypocrisy. I also get people saying they're happy to have time off for the Jubilee, fair enough.

So...not the worst country in the world but not the best. I def get annoyed at the way some Brits talk as though we are the best. I know people abroad laugh at obese British tourists and how unhealthy some are! I honestly think we need to take a long look in the mirror...

@Livingtothefull I have not read all
of this voluminous thread. I will do so.

You are, in my opinion, a credit to the (whichever) country/nation/bit of Wales/Ireland/Scotland/England you come from

Don't be ridiculous! Northern Ireland didn't have a civil war last time and it certainly won't this time. Most of us either laugh or shake our heads at people outside Northern Ireland suggesting such a thing, actually.

OK a civil 'conflict'. I'm glad you guys in NI find the shit show that is your country so hilarious anyway. Maybe you could inform the Irish government that you lot are actually having the time of your lives up there and don't care if we put a hard border in place(a 10 foot wall would be great!) so we can go on with our lives and you can all keep chuntering away to each other having fun up there?

Such a flippant response from yourself fails to further any kind of mature discussion, but I'm not surprised.

Like any country, Northern Ireland has its problems, but is still a very good place to live in today.

The idea of a civil war IS very much unrealistic and nearly always pushed by those with no actual experience of Northern Ireland. Especially misused by Remainers, funnily enough.

"Its not a fully written constitution and the written part is spread over a huge number of different pieces of legislation. But the UK has a part written, part unwritten constitution."

No, the UK has a written constitution. From the University College of London:

"The UK is often said to have an 'unwritten' constitution. This is not strictly correct. It is largely written, but in different documents. But it has never been codified, brought together in a single document."

The only part you got right is the fact our constitution is spread over various documents. Acts Of Parliament is where its mostly derived.

It really doesn't make a huge difference to codify it all into a single document as the constitution will still be the same.

"Also noticeable in the UK is that the constitution can be changed by simple majority (e.g. the Brexit vote) and not by special majority."

The written constitution of the Republic of Ireland can also be changed by a simple majority with no special measures required. Slovakia is another where simple majority can amend a written constitution and very easily too.

I'm not going to list more examples, but the UK is neither notable or unique for this as you're suggesting.

"What on earth is wrong with written single document constitutions? The whole of the rest of Europe has them."

Europe has the highest number of written constitutions with low rates of interpretability. This does not always mean its clear to citizens what their rights, duties and responsibilities are.

Written constitutions can be distorted by authoritarian governments as well. Like anything else in life, there are pros and cons to both our and other European states' approaches.

Most European states have required a Written constitution due to war and revolution. France, for example, had to redo theirs on several occasions with 1940 the most recent. The UK, in contrast, has not experienced the kind of constitutional upheaval most of Europe has. This has meant the UK has been able to evolve at its own speed, sometimes slow, sometimes rapidly.

An example of that was the rapid constitutional change in the late 1990s - GFA, devolution and reform of Lords.

By and large, constitutional change is very disruptive which the UK has largely avoided.

Meiji Japan the rare exception of a state that formally codified its constitution without it being a result of war or revolution. European states are the precise opposite.

The popular saying is "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". The UK's uncodified constitution is no more or less valuable than other European states' codified constitutions.

Keep trying and you might find an absolute example with which to beat the UK over the head with. It's quite interesting you will ignore things you can't argue with such as the UK's placing in the UN HDI.

Keep trying and you might find an absolute example with which to beat the UK over the head with. It's quite interesting you will ignore things you can't argue with such as the UK's placing in the UN HDI.

I hadn’t heard of this, it’s a useful measure

Oh, do get a life. Boris is doing a splendid job on Ukraine war, NIrish need to sort out their own government and learn to co-operate like adults.
The fucking party-gate has been done to death. Move on🤬

Just browsing the news this morning, two headlines stood out;

Stanley Johnson has taken French nationality (via his French mother)

A surge in British companies relocating to the Netherlands because of Brexit.

Brexit is not doing the UK any favours.