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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel proud of my country at the moment?

285 replies

Livingtothefull · 18/05/2022 19:29

I really want to be proud - there are plenty of things to be proud of in the UK (great people/culture/heritage) - but the way we are governed at the moment just sickens me.

We have a liar and a criminal as Prime Minister, I can't bear the sight or sound of him now. 'Partygate' showed us just how much contempt he has for the British public. People are facing huge cost of living rises and poverty, and the Government offered nothing to help address this in the Queen's speech.

The latest is their proposal to break international law.

By the way the Monarchy was shown up as the useless and empty institution it is through the prorogation of Parliament episode, far from a supposed guardian of democracy. I don't have anything against the RF personally, but as an institution it has presided over all of this and yet has nothing to say about it all.

I am sick of hearing about the Jubilee as well, I see nothing to celebrate in what we have all been through over the past couple of years and are facing now. 'Rich privileged woman lives a long time' does not mean anything imo, in the context of the huge numbers of people who have died before their time due to Covid. Many of them elderly and vulnerable people in care homes - where the Government has recently been found (again) to have broken the law by putting them in harm's way.

OP posts:
ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/05/2022 18:37

I don’t even watch the Eurovision. I feel nothing that someone has come second.

Kris02 · 19/05/2022 18:43

It's kind of fashionable to hate Britain (and especially England). Of course, people who claim to hate it often couldn't care less. It's just a pose – an attempt to appear cool and sophisticated ("I'm not a small-minded suburbanite; I'm intelligent, sophisticated and cosmopolitan"). I'm not criticising the OP. To be fair, she does focus on the government and not the country generally, but it really p**ses me off when people run Britain down – especially sneering, sanctimonious liberals.

I don't like Boris Johnson. But then I can think of very few politicians I do like – or ever have. Macron is a puffed up little twerp, and the Canadian PM is insufferably vain. I didn't even like Obama, who I found unbearably smug. As for the monarchy, it's just an embarrassment, and always has been (a bunch of ugly, vulgar gargoyles).

It's our cultural history that makes me proud. For example, Harold Bloom, the American literary critic, listed the three of four thousand books he considered the best ever written. On that list, there were more from the UK than anywhere in the world. I'm proud of Oxford and Cambridge. And I'm proud of the great canon of English/British writers, beginning with Chaucer, then Shakespeare, Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Jane Austen, George Eliot, Walter Pater, John Ruskin, Dickens, Virginia Woolf, etc, etc (to name just a few). If you date British literature from the birth of Chaucer, that's a 600-year-old canon. Plus, of course, philosophers like John Locke, who laid the foundations of modern democracy, and scientists like Newton and Darwin.

We don't make enough of our cultural and intellectual achievements. They mean far more to me than an oaf like Prince Harry. OK, the weather is often sh*t, and the country can be dreary, stressful and overcrowded, but culturally it's a jewel. For anyone interested in art, history and the life of the mind, this is the best place in the world (with the possible exception of France!). If you don't believe me, go to Cambridge or Oxford on a bright, cold Autumnal morning, have a coffee and then spend the day browsing the bookshops. There's nowhere in the world I'd rather be.

Cambridge is pretty close to me, actually, and every time I go there, I think "wow, this is the place Newton studied, and Byron and Tennyson and Milton and Darwin and Wittgenstein and Nabokov and Bertrand Russell and Stephen Hawking. It's the place in which the atom was first described, and the place where DNA was discovered." Virtually every major intellectual figure seems to have lived or studied or died in Britain – Freud, Karl Marx, Lenin, Rimbaud, Van Gogh, Monet, Schopenhauer.

Bill Bryson said that you can never grow bored of Britain. Every square mile contains some fascinating historical or cultural gem – some scientific discovery or poetic masterpiece or whatever. It's no coincidence that Bryson is American, of course. Indeed, it often takes an outsider to remind British people of what they have. And that's because our culture (especially publishing, academia and the arts) is dominated by people on the left who basically hate Britain. That attitude is then instilled in us – we sort of internalise the shame and self-loathing. It was only when I saw Britain through the eyes of an American friend that I really began to appreciate it.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/05/2022 18:50

Of course, people who claim to hate it often couldn't care less. It's just a pose – an attempt to appear cool and sophisticated

No this is not true. I’m one of those people you’re sneering at. I’m ashamed of being English. I’m neither cool nor sophisticated just emabarrassed and honest

moomintrolls · 19/05/2022 18:56

I can't be proud of my country, I have nothing to do with how this country is run.

I'm proud to live in my city, that I chose, and is a great city. I'm hardly proud to be human, a, because I can't help it and b, because we are a destructive and cruel species.

But it's neither here nor there. Power corrupts and every person who has got into a position of great power has indeed been corrupted eventually.

Lipsandlashes · 19/05/2022 19:13

Kris02 · 19/05/2022 18:43

It's kind of fashionable to hate Britain (and especially England). Of course, people who claim to hate it often couldn't care less. It's just a pose – an attempt to appear cool and sophisticated ("I'm not a small-minded suburbanite; I'm intelligent, sophisticated and cosmopolitan"). I'm not criticising the OP. To be fair, she does focus on the government and not the country generally, but it really p**ses me off when people run Britain down – especially sneering, sanctimonious liberals.

I don't like Boris Johnson. But then I can think of very few politicians I do like – or ever have. Macron is a puffed up little twerp, and the Canadian PM is insufferably vain. I didn't even like Obama, who I found unbearably smug. As for the monarchy, it's just an embarrassment, and always has been (a bunch of ugly, vulgar gargoyles).

It's our cultural history that makes me proud. For example, Harold Bloom, the American literary critic, listed the three of four thousand books he considered the best ever written. On that list, there were more from the UK than anywhere in the world. I'm proud of Oxford and Cambridge. And I'm proud of the great canon of English/British writers, beginning with Chaucer, then Shakespeare, Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Jane Austen, George Eliot, Walter Pater, John Ruskin, Dickens, Virginia Woolf, etc, etc (to name just a few). If you date British literature from the birth of Chaucer, that's a 600-year-old canon. Plus, of course, philosophers like John Locke, who laid the foundations of modern democracy, and scientists like Newton and Darwin.

We don't make enough of our cultural and intellectual achievements. They mean far more to me than an oaf like Prince Harry. OK, the weather is often sh*t, and the country can be dreary, stressful and overcrowded, but culturally it's a jewel. For anyone interested in art, history and the life of the mind, this is the best place in the world (with the possible exception of France!). If you don't believe me, go to Cambridge or Oxford on a bright, cold Autumnal morning, have a coffee and then spend the day browsing the bookshops. There's nowhere in the world I'd rather be.

Cambridge is pretty close to me, actually, and every time I go there, I think "wow, this is the place Newton studied, and Byron and Tennyson and Milton and Darwin and Wittgenstein and Nabokov and Bertrand Russell and Stephen Hawking. It's the place in which the atom was first described, and the place where DNA was discovered." Virtually every major intellectual figure seems to have lived or studied or died in Britain – Freud, Karl Marx, Lenin, Rimbaud, Van Gogh, Monet, Schopenhauer.

Bill Bryson said that you can never grow bored of Britain. Every square mile contains some fascinating historical or cultural gem – some scientific discovery or poetic masterpiece or whatever. It's no coincidence that Bryson is American, of course. Indeed, it often takes an outsider to remind British people of what they have. And that's because our culture (especially publishing, academia and the arts) is dominated by people on the left who basically hate Britain. That attitude is then instilled in us – we sort of internalise the shame and self-loathing. It was only when I saw Britain through the eyes of an American friend that I really began to appreciate it.

This is really beautifully put. I agree with everything you have said (apart from having a soft spot for the Queen - sorry!) 👏🏻👏🏻

MarshaBradyo · 19/05/2022 19:14

Kris02 · 19/05/2022 18:43

It's kind of fashionable to hate Britain (and especially England). Of course, people who claim to hate it often couldn't care less. It's just a pose – an attempt to appear cool and sophisticated ("I'm not a small-minded suburbanite; I'm intelligent, sophisticated and cosmopolitan"). I'm not criticising the OP. To be fair, she does focus on the government and not the country generally, but it really p**ses me off when people run Britain down – especially sneering, sanctimonious liberals.

I don't like Boris Johnson. But then I can think of very few politicians I do like – or ever have. Macron is a puffed up little twerp, and the Canadian PM is insufferably vain. I didn't even like Obama, who I found unbearably smug. As for the monarchy, it's just an embarrassment, and always has been (a bunch of ugly, vulgar gargoyles).

It's our cultural history that makes me proud. For example, Harold Bloom, the American literary critic, listed the three of four thousand books he considered the best ever written. On that list, there were more from the UK than anywhere in the world. I'm proud of Oxford and Cambridge. And I'm proud of the great canon of English/British writers, beginning with Chaucer, then Shakespeare, Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Jane Austen, George Eliot, Walter Pater, John Ruskin, Dickens, Virginia Woolf, etc, etc (to name just a few). If you date British literature from the birth of Chaucer, that's a 600-year-old canon. Plus, of course, philosophers like John Locke, who laid the foundations of modern democracy, and scientists like Newton and Darwin.

We don't make enough of our cultural and intellectual achievements. They mean far more to me than an oaf like Prince Harry. OK, the weather is often sh*t, and the country can be dreary, stressful and overcrowded, but culturally it's a jewel. For anyone interested in art, history and the life of the mind, this is the best place in the world (with the possible exception of France!). If you don't believe me, go to Cambridge or Oxford on a bright, cold Autumnal morning, have a coffee and then spend the day browsing the bookshops. There's nowhere in the world I'd rather be.

Cambridge is pretty close to me, actually, and every time I go there, I think "wow, this is the place Newton studied, and Byron and Tennyson and Milton and Darwin and Wittgenstein and Nabokov and Bertrand Russell and Stephen Hawking. It's the place in which the atom was first described, and the place where DNA was discovered." Virtually every major intellectual figure seems to have lived or studied or died in Britain – Freud, Karl Marx, Lenin, Rimbaud, Van Gogh, Monet, Schopenhauer.

Bill Bryson said that you can never grow bored of Britain. Every square mile contains some fascinating historical or cultural gem – some scientific discovery or poetic masterpiece or whatever. It's no coincidence that Bryson is American, of course. Indeed, it often takes an outsider to remind British people of what they have. And that's because our culture (especially publishing, academia and the arts) is dominated by people on the left who basically hate Britain. That attitude is then instilled in us – we sort of internalise the shame and self-loathing. It was only when I saw Britain through the eyes of an American friend that I really began to appreciate it.

As an outsider who chose to move here I agree

nice post

(not sure about the cool part at top but rest I do)

Lonelycrab · 19/05/2022 20:01

It's kind of fashionable to hate Britain

It really isn’t. You’d like that to be the case I’m sure, but you’re wrong, and you show an awful lot of ill conceived judgement in your post too. Sure, it’s great to look at our history but the direction of travel with our government is woeful right now.

Bunnyfuller · 19/05/2022 20:29

It’s not cool to hate Britain ffs, we are actually adults and can make decisions.

it’s the racism, the Little Britain, the Brexit, the inflated sense of self importance, and the arrogance to other cultures.

I give no shits on ‘cool’ but I’m ashamed to be associated with this confidence trick being swallowed by so many from venal short-sightedness, utter ignorance and taugh
xenophobia.

Trainbear · 19/05/2022 20:37

Lonelycrab · 19/05/2022 20:01

It's kind of fashionable to hate Britain

It really isn’t. You’d like that to be the case I’m sure, but you’re wrong, and you show an awful lot of ill conceived judgement in your post too. Sure, it’s great to look at our history but the direction of travel with our government is woeful right now.

Yes, amongst some it is and has been.

If Mgr Thatcher broke the mould, no, the fuckup that was the labour failure in the 1970s cap in hand to the IMF for a loan because Dennis Healey was a shite chancellor, but notwithstanding Thatcher and sake if council houses and no right for LAs to build to trace. Labour under Blair did nothing, LibDems when in bed with the Tories did nothing.
If Boris said "I'm giving all UK residents £10000 we would read -
Fucking only £10000 basterd cheapskate Tories.
Fucking same to the poor and middle class
and then again
Fucking Tories giving the same to refugees just off the boat as to uncle Albert who died in three world wars.
Some people in this country would bitch if they were hung with a new rope.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/05/2022 20:43

Labour under Blair funded education properly, reduced hospital wait lists, opened Sure Start centres, recruited more medical staff. Negotiated the Good Friday agreement which Boris wants to ignore.

Sure, they did nothing at all.

Lipsandlashes · 19/05/2022 22:11

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/05/2022 20:43

Labour under Blair funded education properly, reduced hospital wait lists, opened Sure Start centres, recruited more medical staff. Negotiated the Good Friday agreement which Boris wants to ignore.

Sure, they did nothing at all.

Yeah Blair - he was an honest, upstanding gentleman. Oh wait…

Shamplade · 19/05/2022 22:33

I feel the same. There is such a long list of the ways the current government has, and is, fucking us all over and making sure we can’t do anything about it. I feel we are evolving backwards rapidly. But we only have ourselves to blame. People don’t look beyond the headlines when they vote. People don’t actually look into the policies. They make knee jerk reactions based on the main stream media dog whistles. If anyone complains about the current situation and they voted this shit show of a government in - I’ve run out of sympathy. We knew he was a lying, selfish and incompetent psychopath.

My answer to feeling this way OP, is to turn it into positive action. I have become more political. I write to my MP and volunteer around election time. I sign petitions and donate to groups campaigning for positive change. And I limit my time looking at the news. I try and remind myself that most people are kind and there is lots going on that is good. The little things in life can bring joy.

Please all - next election do your research- look at the party manifestos yourself. Look at the voting records of the politicians. Remember how important it is to have a government that has our best interests at heart. Don’t just rely on headlines, social media and news for information. Remember that there are powerful forces trying to influence our political stability (Russian influence for example) for their own gain. Go direct to the party websites. Vote for the common good, not just selfish gain.

TankFlyBossW4lk · 19/05/2022 22:40

"We are a great nation. If you don't like living here don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out."

God, depressing but predictable response. The simpletons are out in force tonight. I'm with you OP. Yanbu.

BanjoKnickers · 19/05/2022 22:47

TankFlyBossW4lk · 19/05/2022 22:40

"We are a great nation. If you don't like living here don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out."

God, depressing but predictable response. The simpletons are out in force tonight. I'm with you OP. Yanbu.

It's so true! You can absolutely spot the brexit voters Grin

DdraigGoch · 19/05/2022 23:19

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/05/2022 20:43

Labour under Blair funded education properly, reduced hospital wait lists, opened Sure Start centres, recruited more medical staff. Negotiated the Good Friday agreement which Boris wants to ignore.

Sure, they did nothing at all.

All of those new schools and hospitals paid for under PFI deals. Neatly keeping the capital debt off of the government's balance sheets, while lumbering future generations with exorbitant costs to service the debt and change lightbulbs.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 20/05/2022 00:03

I was actually referring to funding for pupils not building.

But under the Tories l taught in a room with huge fungus growing up the walls. Leaks everywhere. All the time. They were disgusting, the kids hated it. New schools needed to come from somewhere.

Livingtothefull · 20/05/2022 07:44

I agree @Shamplade that positive action is required and it is not enough to complain on here. And I do try to do that: I am in touch with my MP and do most of the things you mentioned, and I always vote. It is important that people engage directly.

I am lucky of course that my MP is not a middle aged male Tory, as in this case I could not be sure he is not the individual being investigated on suspicion of rape and abuse in public office. Although he is not attending Parliament, other people (including constituents) could be at risk.

There are at least 56 MPs facing sexual misconduct allegations with a total of around 70 complaints; is it just me or are those figures horrendously high set against the total numbers of MPs? What does it say about the so-called 'governing class'?

I don't agree at all with those who equate criticising the way the UK is being run with hating it. Loving one's country surely leads to wanting to better it and put right the things that are going wrong; you can of course celebrate the things that are good without being an unthinking cheerleader.

OP posts:
Livingtothefull · 20/05/2022 08:40

Still let's look on the bright side.....Rishi Sunak is getting a new swimming pool. Not a great look during a cost of living crisis, though he is personally impacted by this too as it will cost him £13,000 a year to heat it.

OP posts:
the80sweregreat · 20/05/2022 14:46

Rishi rich is on the rich list?
The cost of swimming pools eh? It is a scandal.

onthefencesitter · 20/05/2022 15:12

I am an immigrant.Just got my indefinite leave to remain. In my view, the most interesting beautiful countries with the nicest people often have the most abysmal governments. I do think it is correlated; when life is hard, people have to learn to laugh at the little things which is probably why British comedy is so good, and develop a better personality. My home country is very efficient; but the people are also very demanding. If there was an Olympics on complaining, we would take the gold medal every time.

I love the UK esp London where I live. People have a soft side to them, they generally listen more. But goodness your government is dreadful and causes no end of problems. But the people are what makes the place.

luckylavender · 20/05/2022 15:19

Userg1234 · 18/05/2022 19:45

Love people like you.....so negative. perhaps some of us like the royals, not resent and envy them. I bet your from a very middle class background, university, but resent that others have done better than yoI

I think that whilst there were errors we got through covid ok. Remember that we actually counted deaths very strictly many countries did not

Economically we have spent a shit load to save jobs and push on and we will get through this year and come out a much stronger country than most of the western world will do.

Remember, we have had a world wide pandemic, a war in Europe and massive problems of economic supply resulting from them

We are a great nation. If you don't like living here don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

Rose tinted specs

Lazerbeen · 20/05/2022 15:23

What does it even mean to be proud of your country. Proud of the government? Proud of every single citizen? Proud of how we perform in sporting events? It's a very weird notion imo in the first place.

OMG12 · 20/05/2022 15:24

Meh, such is life, these things go in cycles, tbh there’s not much you can do. If Labour were in charge the edges might have a slightly different pattern but very little would change regarding the underlying problems.

Get rid of the monarchy, get a president, well that would likely be someone who you didn’t like either.

unless we change the predisposition of human nature and societal values (I’m talking massive changes, not just sticking Keir Starmer with a questionable character in number 10 which would piss off other people) you’re wasting a lot of energy. Your anger is really not going to help anyone.

PrettyMaybug · 20/05/2022 15:26
Biscuit
onthefencesitter · 20/05/2022 15:28

And in my view, for the people who are not in poverty (80% of the population), it's not all bad, it depends on what you are used to. Like DH and I bought a flat in London and we will probably always live in a flat (though we hope it would be bigger). Maybe many middle class Brits consider this Outrageous and symptom of a unequal unjust society but apartment living is very common outside the UK. The NHS isnt very good and much worse than what I was used to but hey it's free at the point of service so I guess one can't complain in that sense? Most of us are not paying very much for it when you consider the cost of medical caree.dental care is expensive in any country...

but for the people in poverty, I am very sorry, it isn't justifiable...