to be offended by this T-shirt?

[parklife1]

I saw a post on social media today. It was about two gay men becoming fathers of twins via surrogate. There was a picture of the two men in "DAD" T-shirts. The pregnant surrogate stood in between them with a T-shirt saying "NOT THE MOMMA".

I'm not even against surrogacy perse, but I found this picture offensive.

I understood why she was wearing it - she wanted to display that she doesn't want to have a mothering role in the children's life.

I still think it's a slap in the face of women, we go through so much during pregnancy and labour. Giving birth can be life-threatening, I lost 2.1 litres of blood during my first birth and 1 litre of blood during my second birth.

Many women have postpartum depression after birth and the hormones are on a roller-coaster.

My body will be forever marked by giving birth (stretch marks, C-section scar, mum tum).

To me this picture is just offensive, because it sort of portrays women and our bodies as a commodity.

AIBU?

She is the child’s birth mum, no matter how much she pretends or what t shirt she wears. She’s deluded.

Interesting how there’s this thread about how very wrong surrogacy for two willing parents is (which I think the wrongness of which is exacerbated to people because they’re both men), yet on another thread about how much parents see their children when working there are answers like “20 mins in the morning and an hour at night”.

Why is it wrong for this woman to be a surrogate for two loving parents, but fine to have your own children and (when their is the choice), barely see them to make the choice to progress your career because you “like it”?

I was considering being a surrogate for some very close friends who have had a horrendous history of miscarriages.
If I had gone through with it, right from the very start I would never have considered myself the child's mother.
It's not deluded at all.
You don't have to understand it. You just have to accept not everyone feels the same way you do.

@DropYourSword

This! I can’t understand how people can view this as anything but a wonderful gift. Yes I get being offended that some rich celeb just uses a surrogate because she can’t be arses giving birth or doesn’t want to lose her figure or career - but those are by far the minority of surrogacy cases.

Whether you would have considered yourself that or not, you would have been the child’s birth mum. You would have given birth to the child and that matters.

You’re right, not everyone feels like me, it’s all about what they want. Want, want, want. They’re selfish and entitled and think they have a right to a child. Surrogacy doesn’t centre the child, it’s about the adults...entitled ones.

You can't give people as gifts.

This!

The reactions on this thread are hilarious, you'd swear the child has been ripped away from it's mother

So far as the newborn is concerned, they have been tipped away from their mother. That's not 'hilarious'.

GetOff, you might not view a woman who gives birth as the mother but the newborn does.

Children are entitled to have people about whom they can say 'this is my mother and father', even when those people aren't raising them. It's a human right imo. That doesn't happen when eggs come from one woman, another grows and births the baby - it means that for the child, neither woman can be claimed as the mother, which I consider to be an injustice to the child.

Its not comparable to leaving a feckless father off the birth certificate so that he cannot use the baby to control the mother. Even where he is left off the paperwork, I still consider that the child has a human right to know who he is.

@VestaTilley is right.

For some, it may be a selfless act, voluntarily undertaken - they are few and far between. For most women this is desperation or coercion. In many countries - Eastern Europe among them, women are effectively "battery-farmed" to produce babies. In some countries husbands make their wives/partners act as surrogates because it is comparatively easy money. This includes 1st world countries.

This horrible, brutal war in Ukraine saw dozens of surrogate babies left without parents because no-one was able to collect them. Every day they are in the clinical situation makes them less acceptable to the parents - not just because they wanted their tiny baby now, but because the terror of war and institutionalisation will have affected them badly.What will happen to them?

What about the families of the women who die in childbirth, or whose health is destroyed? Not every country has an HNS. What happens to their families

What about the children who are born "not perfect"? Many of those are abandoned by the commissioning parents. Whose responsibility are they?

What about the children who are commissioned bay/ sold on by paedophiles? The whole system is hideously open to abuse, and it is children and women who are suffering.

Surrogate is a modern-day slavery, and a human-trafficking nightmare which is ignore because of the stories of 'We got the child we longed for" plastered all over the papers.

This isn't Disney - it's much more Stephen King.

When someone offers to be a surrogate - most of the time they're not receiving payment for this. They are paid for time they'll miss from work for appointments etc but don't receive an actual payment for doing it.

this is naive

You’re right, not everyone feels like me, it’s all about what they want. Want, want, want. They’re selfish and entitled and think they have a right to a child. Surrogacy doesn’t centre the child, it’s about the adults...entitled ones

wow, this is just too much. I can’t believe what I’m reading on this thread.

Yes it's funny that in the UK surrogate mothers can't be paid except expenses and yet there is an apparent "going rate" of about £15,000.
When I see surrogate mothers discussing their expenses on YouTube etc they always talk about the maternity clothes, the sanitary towels and the vitamins!

My pregnancies probably cost me about £300 - I had a lot of pass down maternity clothes but treated myself to a few items and things like bras. I doubt vitamins and sanitary items exceeded £50
A few costs like hospital parking and I suppose the petrol.

🤷‍♀️

Sorry, I would add a screen shot of figures from the Law Commission re expenses but the Mumsnet website isn't being helpful.

Surrogacy, is to me similar to abortion in that it isn't something I say I support but I do support the right of women to choose to do it. In supporting women to make a choice you understand that's there's going to be reasoning behind some of those choices that you don't agree with.

It's important though that it comes from choice and not from coercion. Money as a reason, eh it's unpalatable to me but I'm pretty comfortable so don't feel ideally positioned to have an opinion on that.

Many of the people who are arguing against surrogacy are using both the worst case scenario to support their arguments whilst presenting an idealised outcome to natural birth, which we know frequently isn't the case. The reality is that many people have babies, naturally, for selfish reasons, the needs and wants of the baby came second.

Also if we're going into needs and wants of babies and pretending that it's actually at the forefront of the breeding instinct then there's actual spare babies and small children out there who's needs and wants aren't met and making a fresh one rather than adopting one of them is also kinda morally dubious. This applies to natural birth and to surrogate birth.

So yeah quite alot of stuff happens around birth and child raising that I think I'm not a vocal supporter of BUT I understand that someone else has made that choice.

I think there probably needs to be stricter laws regarding going overseas into areas with a more lax approach to it though

How is this naive?

Have you ever had fertility treatment?
I have. Over several years.

Fertility treatment as well as surrogacy costs money.
The appointments cost money.
The consultations cost money.
The Counselling and therapy appointments required costs money.
The travel, fuel, hotel fees if the fertility clinic is long distance costs money.
Maternity clothes costs money.

The time off work for appointments costs money. (The time the surrogate has off work after the pregnancy also costs money).
The supplements and medications cost money.

The cost racks up a bit doesn't it...??

You are EXTREMELY LUCKY that's all your pregnancies cost you. 👏🏻
For others it isn't like that. I have already replied to one person with this but thought I'd copy and paste my reply to you as well.
Your pregnancies cost you very little because you didn't NEED to consider all of the other costs when it comes to fertility treatments.

Fertility treatment as well as surrogacy costs money.
The appointments cost money.
The consultations cost money.
The Counselling and therapy appointments required as part of the fertility/surrogacy costs money.
The travel, fuel, hotel fees if the fertility clinic is long distance costs money.
Maternity clothes costs money.

The time off work for appointments costs money. (The time the surrogate has off work after the pregnancy also costs money).
The supplements and medications cost money.

I have had fertility treatment which obviously cost thousands and thousands of pounds. However, separate to that, I have lost A LOT of money through having to attend appointments therefore missing work etc and the other things mentioned above.

It's a lot more than £300.

What if it were a man and a women with a surrogate? Would that change things

@cherrybonbons many posters have said rrpeatrdly that they object to straight people using surrogates, too. It's not an issue that the couple who bought a child are gay men - it's the fact they bought a child that's wrong.

Because the figures run into tens of thousands. Vitamins, massages, special food, clothing, relaxation music, furnishings, you name it. If it can be shoehorned in, it will be. It’s not just necessities by any means. It’s actually quite easy to bulk up payments.

Yep
and the sex of the people who are given/sold the baby is totally irrelevant

While I still have some concerns around this arrangement it’s very different from people commissioning a poorer woman who they don’t know to do this.

Less exploitation of the birth mum, but still puts the wants of the adults above the child. It should be banned.

You don't have to understand it. You just have to accept not everyone feels the same way you do

@DropYourSword do you accept that the ‘everyone’ you refer to includes the resulting person? If you had gone ahead with being a surrogate how would you approach a situation where the resulting person did feel or desire a connection with you at some point in their life? There’s no guarantee either way whether they would or wouldn’t have their own emotional investment.

@ImAvingOops and @Emotionalsupportviper both sum up my feelings regarding both the surrogate themselves and the resulting person.

I don’t understand why anyone supporting surrogacy, and there are valid reasons for that support that I can understand, wouldn’t address the concerns raised rather than switch into attack-defence mode. These issues exist, how are being addressed by those involved in surrogacy?

@XelaM If she was too old to have babies then she could have ADOPTED two of the many kids in need, rather than creating designer babies. The shallowness of your argument that because her and her partner are 'ridiculously wealthy' is unbelievable. Many children in wealthy families are unhappy and just want love, not gifts and material items. Them being ridiculously wealthy does not mean they will be HAPPY.