Shall I just give up breastfeeding ? Traffic post

[isitmeorzzz]

My baby is almost 3 weeks old.

I've had quite the journey with feeding her. Starting with sore / bleeding nipples and the wrong latch. I have sought lots of advice from midwives and lactation consultant's consultants during this time.

We worked out the latch was too shallow and have worked on positioning etc. The latch is now OK most of the time. I think possibly 80 percent gold latch and 20 percent bad latch. Where she slips a bit etc. or sometimes she won't open her mouth wide enough for me to get a deep latch.

In any case, I feed her for hours and hours and she hardly ever just settles after. Sometimes she does, but rarely. I top her up with formula after most feeds and it seems like she wants more and more formula now.

Occasionally she settles after having fed on the breast, but those times are few and far between. She falls asleep after breastfeeding and as long as I hold her, she'll continue to sleep. As soon as I want to put her down, she starts rooting again.

Anyway I'm getting to the point where she's having 400 or so ml of formula a day and I'm thinking why am I even spending all this time feeding her if she's basically a formula fed baby anyway ? What's the point ? I have a two year old and she's really suffering, as I can't play much with her and I'm constantly sitting feeding the baby. I can't get anything done etc around the house and it's just really hard.

What's the point ? Has anyone been in this situation ? If at least she was exclusively fed, I would carry on. But she's starting to need more and more formula. What is the point? It's really impacting my home life and toddler very badly at this point.

If you don't give the formula how is she?

My son dropped loads of weight when born and we were told to top up and combi feed which I did.

He was always fine after my milk but cluster fed as usual. After formula he'd be really unsettled and then vomit most of the feed. Which then led to him losing weight.

At 16 weeks we finally saw a dietician who diagnosed CMPA. He was being unsettled after formula because it was making him unwell.

That said, if she's throwing up, she's taking too much.... will she take a dummy? I wonder if she's suffering from silent reflux a bit.

The rooting around, crying, headbutting and other similar behaviour is how the baby indicates to your boobs that they will need more milk tomorrow. If you don't hold baby through this then your boobs don't get the message and don't increase production for the next day. It isn't cruel - it's part of how the biology of bf works.

Ebf is really time consuming. And it's even more difficult when you throw older children into the mix - I've done it twice with other kids (16m and 3yrs) and would say that only you can decide whether it's something you want to continue with.

If you do want to continue then DH needs to step up with dc1 and you need to accept that it will be difficult when you're on your own. Make meals as easy as possible, forget cleaning, do nothing but bf and tend to dc1's basic needs. You can read stories and bf at the same time. "Everyone fed and nobody dead" is a good motto for the first 4 months.

If you do continue then Try reducing formula by 50ml per day and change once a week. So week 1: 350ml a day, week 2 300ml etc The formula will.male up a lower and lower proportion of what dc2 is having week by week.

My friend would have her baby latched on for a solid 5-6 hours at the same time every day as well as other feeds!
When hers was about a month to 8 weeks it eased off being so long.

Mine didn't feed for that long in one go but would easily be on off literally all day/ night and would go about 2 hours max before wanting another feed.

They're all different.

What time do you give the formula? I know breast milk is produced in more quantities at a certain time baby feeds- possibly earl evening/ evening? Baby feeding is much better at helping your supply compared to pumping.

Also a bottle is easier to drink from so that will teach baby not to suck so hard/ much so it may not be helping with the breastfeeding.

I think you need to decide what you want to do and just go for it.

If you carry on bf maybe reduce the bottles and work out what you can do with your 2 year old while they sit beside you whilst you feed.

I'd maybe get a second opinion as I'm also very surprised you've been told to give bottles it doesn't seem right if you really wanted to carry on with bf.

Good luck.

Have you been assessed for tongue tie? Both my babies had it and after the first time I asked for two second opinions from midwives in the hospital, and they all said the baby was fine...8 weeks in and I was still struggling with latch, with positioning, with feeding all the time

I took the baby to a qualified tongue tie practitioner. They don't just look in the babys mouth they do 6 other checks putting a 'gloved!' finger in their mouth and touching different bits to assess how their tongue can move about etc. Midwives and other HPs will just take a quick look and say it all looks fine.

Anyway after the TT was snipped my baby started bringing back up milk after a feed, they had never done this before and its because their tummy had never been that full before.

Something to consider. I'd say that a 3 week old is going to spend a lot of time feeding and it does impact on toddler. It settles down, but only you can decide if it's worth it. They do get benefits from breastmilk even if you are FF as well (like antibodies etc). But these benefits may only be small and might not weigh up against issues with your toddler and your mental health

See, everyone I've talked to in real life has said it's not normal ! And that after an hour of feeding or so, baby should be ok not being on the breast for a bit. Maybe another hour. It doesn't happen in our case

how do they know it’s not normal? What are they basing that on?

i got told that a lot. “Feeding again”, they shouldn’t feeding that much, what do you mean they’re still feeding at night, etc.

then the inevitable how do you know they’re getting enough, maybe your milk isn’t rich enough or doesn’t agree with them…

however none of these people had breastfed themselves. Their views were purely based on their every 4 hours strict routine formula fed babies.

i found even HCP generally have no experience with bf and don’t know what is normal. Bf rates are so low in this country it’s fairly unusual to bf past 6 weeks. Which is why much of the “advice” is pretty crap and involves pumping and topping up, rather than actually trying to breastfeed.

I had similar @DrinkFeckArseBrick. DD2 eventually had her tongue tie snipped at 4 weeks old. At least 3 midwives said she was fine. I pumped and bottle fed for 3 weeks. When she got snipped she latched straight on and carried on for another 14 months!

I'm another one OP who had a baby that fed constantly for weeks, DD1, was like this. I mix fed for 4 months then gave up BF.

Do what is right for you and your family. BF, mix feed, formula feed, it doesn't matter which as long as it works for you and your baby.

Well, your baby will be perfectly happy and healthy either way so just make the decision based on what is easier for you, and what will make your life better. If you are happier and handling life better, both of your children will benefit hugely.

People have been telling me I've got no milk etc. or low milk. My MIL even said ' is anything even coming out ? '

Eh yes it is, because baby is staying there and would not of there was nothing.

The expectation is that baby should feed for a maximum time and then come off and settle for a bit.

I guess that's not what they all do hey ?

The HV said just keep going and it will get better eventually. But since giving more formula, I feel like I'm losing big time. My husband really thinks I'm cruel. He says you have to give the baby formula if still hungry after several hours of being on the breast. I don't think there's enough education around it ( myself included ), people don't e of y them to be latched on all day and all night. But honestly I also think it's dangerous to expect them to be latched on 24 hours a day. I've fallen asleep holding the baby and breastfeeding her a few times now. I'm quite worried about that. I'm not sure how people manage to stay awake ?

Only you can make that decision OP. I managed 8 weeks of trying to get her to latch, crying in pain from sore nipples, sore arms from holding my boob up so it didn’t suffocate her (3 midwives and a lactation consultant couldn’t find a position where I didn’t have to hold my boob up) and pumping while not feeding to try keep my supply going, breastfeeding (or trying to) was an absolutely miserable experience, I was so exhausted. I bonded much better with my baby once I switched to formula, life got 100% better, although I felt guilt for a while and still do a bit, I know it was the best decision for us.

Op I've ebf 3dc all with good weight gain (so something was coming out) and all of them fed for hours and hours until they were about 4m old.

Tbh I'm typing this on my phone now because 14mo ds3 is glued to my boob and everytime I have tried to move for the last hour he has woken up and relatched. I know i's just a phase because ds1 and ds2 had similar patches.

What you have described is - in my experience - totally normal for a young bf baby.

DD used to cluster feed at around 3 weeks and I’d spend hours passing her from one boob to the other… she’d then throw up what felt like the whole lot over me and we’d start again. I won’t lie, it was exhausting and painful BUT it only lasted a week or so, then she settled down until her next growth leap around 8 weeks (and even then it want as bad as 3 weeks she’d just cluster feed in the evenings).
it is absolutely normal at that stage… they need more food and more comfort when going through a development leap and the valve that stops food coming back up isn’t working properly yet, hence the throwing up.
You’ve got to do what’s right for you but I just wanted to say it is perfectly normal and it does get better (and sooner than you’d think… DD is 15 weeks and it already seems like a long distant memory).
Agree with pp though that formula is a vicious circle IF you want to keep breastfeeding as the more you give her the worse your milk supply will be. Also with pumping… it’s not effective and I didn’t even bother trying until 8 weeks or so to start building up some for the freezer, it’s supposed to be easier when breastfeeding is more established.
As long as you’re getting wet and dirty nappies and baby is putting on weight that’s all that matters! Whatever you do, be kind to yourself and don’t let anyone tell you you’re not doing a good job, you’ve obviously persevered in spite of all the difficulties!

What about at night time ? Do they also feed that much at night ?

This basically.

I also fear you're getting in to the top up trap.

IF you want to continue (and don't feel pressured to do so), remember that most newborns feed very frequently. Measures of sufficient breast milk intake are: moist mouth, urine output, weight gain.

As well for feeding for hunger newborns feed for comfort, to stimulate their bowels, for thirst and to make more milk to meet their future needs- more feeding=more milk.

To increase supply babies will latch on and latch off, headbutt the boob, scream and cry at the breast, act like you are starving them, bang their little fists on you. It's all bio-feedback and stimulates milk production.

By giving formula, you interrupt that biofeedback because baby doesn't do those things. Then your breasts don't increase milk production and baby needs more and more formula.

But if you don't want to breastfeed, don't. You don't have to and you shouldn't feel guilty about stopping.

Yes. They don't have a circadian rhythm yet which tells them the difference between night and day. That comes later. You can help them develop it by keeping noise and light levels low at night and bright and noisy in the day

My eldest was like yours OP. Feeding for hours and hours and hours. I watched so much TV. It got much better at about six weeks.

But I was lucky because he was my eldest - I didn’t have a toddler in the mix too. I don’t think I would have managed to breastfeed him if I’d been looking after a toddler too (fortunately my second was far easier). That must be incredibly tough. Does she go to nursery at all? Can you enlist more help?

Offer the other breast once one side is done and start on second one at the next feed. She's just building supply up. 💐

Sympathies OP has I can feel your exhaustion and totally appreciate how difficult it is to have a newborn constantly latched whilst also caring for a toddler.

As exhausting as it is, the constant feeding / need to be on the breast for hours at a time sounds completely normal to me, and I say that having breastfed 3 babies and supported many breastfeeding mothers in my working life. In the first 6 weeks or so my babies were pretty much chained to the breast, and I feel certain that had I topped up with formula they would also have happily accepted that, although not through hunger as they were gaining weight beautifully. As PP have mentioned the baby’s desire to be at the breast is a primal response and is not purely driven by hunger. It’s hard to gauge accurately without knowing what centile your baby is on / what their pattern of weight gain looks like, but my instinct is that you are topping up with too much formula and that is behind the vomiting post feeds. Many babies will accept top up feeds even if they don’t need them for the calorific content, and I wonder if this is part of the picture here. My advice would be to dial back on the formula feeds for a few days and see if that makes any difference.

This is also what someone else has told me. So I've had such conflicting advice.

The HV said the baby is latching really well, is clearly getting loads of milk and the milk transfer is good. She has milk in her mouth and her cheeks looked nice and round apparently and she was also swallowing. So clearly getting enough milk from me.

She said, babies just like to be on the breast, like you're saying. And she even said, if you're exhausted, do use a bit of formula sometimes.

The lactation consultant said, it must be my supply. And baby is not getting enough, but to still continue with formula top ups, if baby seems hungry still after feeding for more than an hour... and to express every time there's a formula top up. Which is what I've been doing.

Another midwife I saw, said that she also thinks baby is getting enough from me and latch and transfer is good. But that baby is just wanting to be close and to hand baby to someone else sometimes to rock to sleep and comfort a bit, to give me a little break.

So I've had all sorts of opinions. I upped babies formula feed amounts a couple of days ago, because she was just so angry and hungry and eating her hands so much and would not settle.

I took the fact that she was taking all the formula as a sign that there's not enough from me, but perhaps you're right and they just keep eating, even when full.

OP, I think you know what is right for your baby. Don't listen to anyone who think otherwise. I have an EBF baby who never took the bottle nor settled even after a cluster feed and even now ( 14 month in 2 days) still feeding A Lot but I know that is what I chose and feel comfortable with it. Just go with your gut feeling, you know what is best for your baby and you are right. Good luck, it is so hard when they are this little but from my first born, I know it does not last forever. ❤️

So hard when you get conflicting advice OP, and I know myself how agonising it is when faced with the dilemma of various parenting decisions.

Something worth googling / experimenting with is breast compressions during feeding. I found this really helpful with my perma-latched babies. The Kellymom website is great for explaining it. I wonder if your lactation consultant mentioned it to you?

Don't beat yourself up if it's not working out. You've got a baby and a toddler. Don't be hard on yourself. All my children were bottle fed and I enjoyed them from day 1. It makes me sad to read the angst from mums who are struggling with breastfeeding and to hear it from friends.

From what you’ve said about her vomiting after the top ups, I wonder whether she isn’t still hungry after BF, but her desire to suck isn’t satisfied yet. Some babies are definitely more “sucky” than others. And she’s taking the bottle because she stills wants to suck, but she isn’t hungry? One of mine was a nightmare for this - feeding, still wanting to suck, getting angry- and it was solved by giving him a dummy. He just wanted to keep sucking! And he BF exclusively until 12 months (obvs introduced solids at 5/6m) - but he just needed the dummy to soothe between feeds.

the other thing that strikes me, is that you say, she feeds, falls asleep and then wakes up and roots when you try to put her down - a
dummy might solve this? And not putting her down as much as possible! They basically just want to snuggle with mum asa much as possible!

Yeah she mentioned the breast compressions, which I've been doing. I'm also aware of kellymom.

Question to all those in the know :

As I lay here, having a small break. As my baby has a formula top up over an hour ago and is now blissfully sleeping... I'm dreading when she wakes up and I start feeding her again because IT HURTS at first. When she's had a break, it really hurts. Once she's latched on , it's OK. But the initial latching after there's been a break, kills me. To the extent that I'm absolutely dreading the next feed.

I do use a dummy. It helps sometimes. But more often than not, she spits it out.. but yeah sometimes I can pass her to my husband and he can rock her with the dummy in and then she sleeps for a short time.

Reading all your subsequent posts this is what I would do if you do want to keep breast feeding. I’d breast feed her as much as she wants, as far as possible. Then instead of offering formula I’d try the dummy. If she settles with this, she’s probably not hungry? If she still cries (give it time, not immediately) then a small top of of formula. I think if she’s feeding for hours, then having 90ml formula and then being sick it’s possible she’s a sucky baby and a dummy would help give you a break.

I also think if you’re at the point where you’re worried about being so exhausted you’ll fall asleep on a sofa/chair it’s not worth it. I do think there’s a point breast is not best, I’m not saying that’s the case for you, but if I was worried about the baby’s safety and my own mental health from complete exhaustion I would stop.