To not understand why women box?

[Choufleurfromage]

Not a fan of boxing as a 'sport' in general and given the hysteria over football/rugby tacking and head injuries, am surprised such a violent contact sport is still allowed.
Also, at the risk of being oxymoronic, I really do think women shouldn't be banned from doing stuff, but boxing is just so uncouth, ugly and violent, I cannot understand why women would want to do it; ok, it offers opportunities for disadvantaged youngsters (plenty of evidence of this), it creates discipline and focus, but it is still 2 people battering each other for no reason...
I am sure iabu, and am not suggesting women only pursue 'dainty' sports or activities, but boxing?

@ToletPoster

I really think your deluding yourself here no offense. Where not talking about a top of the world female fighter vs a weak man. Were talking about the average woman who takes boxing classes or sparring vs the average man - especially if strong.

How would you really know if you could take a blow full force from an ungloved man without folding? Have you?
This is the kind of thing I’m talking about - without boxing you would realise that you can’t take a full force punch from a man, whereas with it you think you might stand a chance and would be even more shocked by the reality.

Im saying this from a place of looking out for women because I don’t want teen girls or young women to think they’re able to do something they’re really not, simply because they train and the endorphins get released, they start to feel good about themselves and get a false sense of what will actually happen.

@ToletPoster

The other thing is isn’t that fighter a lightweight or something? Even against your local fit 6 foot rugby player, I doubt she would rally go that well. I really think that the strength and natural difference would be too much.

h come off it @Tamzo85 - how do you THINK I know?!

I've sparred - full contact & 'pulled'.
I've competed - ditto.
I've been beaten up by men. I've also saved myself from a beating, or worse, from men.

Are you seriously telling me you reckon I don't know the difference?

Which of us do you reckon is better able to protect herself when violence unfortunately occurs - you or me?

I used to do kickboxing and as others have said, it's much more about discipline, stamina, confidence, strength etc.

But, for me personally, the whole idea and expectation of women being dainty and feminine makes me want to do contact sports MORE. I don't WANT people to think I'm dainty and feminine. I have actually punched people in the face in the past in drunken arguments as a student, and while I'm not proud of that and don't condone my behaviour I find it bizarre that you can't fathom why any woman would want to punch people. When I'm angry I absolutely do want to punch people and I think channelling it into a controlled environment like boxing is far healthier than starting fights. Your views on boxing actually make me want to go and sign up to it!

@Tamzo85
I used that example illustratively. In reality I see male novice trainees get tooled up by experienced hobbiests regularly. 99% of people are novices in fighting.
It is incredibly difficult to get a clean hit on an experienced boxer as someone who doesn't train.
Even your comment about gloved hands betrays your lack of experience. Boxers are able to throw punches as hard as they do because the padded gloves protect finger joints and wrist wraps protect wrists.
Bare Knuckle boxing leads to more cuts but necessitate less forceful punches.

I get that you don't believe it. Nothing seems simpler than whacking someone in front of you before you train, but that's why I say it comes from a place of ignorance.
I'm primarily a grappler and whilst I'm confident I could choke most untrained people out, I'm even more confident that i can escape from most forms of grab or hold that the average person presents me with, because that's what I spend most of my time doing, often against people who are bigger and presumably stronger than me.
From there, if I don't fancy wrestling with a stranger (which I generally don't, outside of training, I'm much more free to leave than I would be if I had never trained.
Similarly, from my experience of striking arts, hitting hard is secondary to making sure you don't get hit cleanly, even when you're trying to hit someone.

Most men aren't 6 foot rugby players and most men would struggle with a local 6 foot rugby player.
I would still say that a man within reasonable distance of that size who has trained in a fighting art will handily beat that rugby player, especially if constrained to that art in the same way that they would lose at 1-on-1 rugby (if that's a thing). These are technical skills like any other and most people aren't prodigies.

I can definitely take down men bigger than me. I have done it

The average man has no idea how to fight. Kickboxing training for women, usually includes extensive self defence and training women to be able to better protect themselves.

The average man is stronger than me. The average man is not a trained fighter or even has the slightest clue that winning a fight isn’t just about throwing your fists about.

and yes I am far more confident about my ability to protect myself from men, than I was when I hadn’t trained.

and actually many of us have gone full contact with men. Like men doing taster days that think they can feel good about themselves by hurting the women present. Thing it damages their egos when they know a woman can hold their own, so try to just use force to win. They definitely don’t hold back. They quickly learn, that fighting isn’t force only.

Also, being abused gives you a really good sense of what men are capable of.

Admittedly, I probably could take down my current partner. He is 6ft 4in weights 17 stone and is trained fighter himself. He also used to work the doors in the nearest city. He has seen many average men and their fighting ‘technique’. He can attest, it’s shit. He is confident I have a good chance of being able to keep myself safe. And he sees both sides of it.

Have you ever tried boxing OP? I would feel more positive about fielding a question from somebody who tried it and never liked it rather than a person judging on a hypothetical basis.
Do you even have a serious fitness regime?I ask because those who do would be unlikely to concern themselves unnecessarily with what others are doing to keep fit (within legal limits obviously).

I have boxed. It was not my main sport. I do not box currently mainly because I am no longer a gym member and would have to invest in extra equipment. I boxed because I was good at it, it gave me a buzz, helped with my reaction times in non boxing situations and made me a lot calmer and focused as a person. Most boxing is actually centered on non violent contact and preventing acts of violence. You do not seem to understand that.

Boxing/martial arts instructors are some of the most naturally non violent members of society because they have learned how to master those fight instincts which everybody has. If you haven't mastered one of those disciplines then you may well have unresolved issues unless you are one of those rare specimens born with an extremely zen temperament. Therefore, in an everyday confrontation, they would be the best equipped to diffuse a situation which is why they often work in nightclub security roles etc.

I get that you may think this if you haven't taken martial arts and sparring classes in a mixed-sex class. However, If you do these sports, and you are in a mixed class, you know full well that you cannot face off to a fit male. No false sense of security at all. You know how much stronger they are, how much more power they have, how longer their reach is. So there is no false sense of security because I know.

However, being fit, knowing releases, knowing the weak points on the body, knowing the first rule is to get away, the second rule is to stun and get away etc certainly puts me in a better position than my 20 year old self who did not know this. I'd prefer to have this knowledge than not.

@Tamzo85

Firstly I don't think any woman would box with the expectation of boxing against a man. But some understanding of the technique and also the psychological state of being in a fight would be helpful if she needed to defend herself: if you have experience of challenging someone and learning to anticipate their moves, scope out your capabilities etc you are in a far stronger position to defend yourself.

Also I just think a lot of it is about self-perception: teaching yourself not to be afraid etc. It's not only about self-defence its about having a sense of yourself as a psychologically powerful person who is able to project themself and be heard and listened to. Any kind of exercise is good for this but one which teaches you to be aware of your opponent's tactics is likely to be helpful.

Because it’s a great way for girls and women to understand their physical power and how to use their bodies in a defensive way. If you get cornered in a park or alley you might get one chance to get away, and if you have the physical knowledge, skill, and confidence to defend yourself you have a better chance of survival. Oh, and boxing is fun.

Also I just think a lot of it is about self-perception: teaching yourself not to be afraid etc. It's not only about self-defence its about having a sense of yourself as a psychologically powerful person who is able to project themself and be heard and listened to. Any kind of exercise is good for this but one which teaches you to be aware of your opponent's tactics is likely to be helpful.

Well said, & I think this is mainly what OP & some PP are not 'getting'.
Martial arts isn't about hitting people. It's about not getting hit. It's about your own psychology. You own sense of pride, dignity, & ownership of your personal space. I can often tell when someone is a hobby martial artist. Difficult to describe, but there is a ... presence to them.

@KettrickenSmiled

When you say you’ve sparred “full contact” with men without them pulling punches - are you talking about an actual bout where they are actually trying to knock you out? Doubt it - getting punched kind of hard but not without care as to whether you love or die are two different things.

I think you may have been punched in training sparring but likely not by men who are really trying to knock you out for the count. So no, I don’t think you can tell the difference. Especially with gloves off. I think likely getting hit kind of hard has made you feel good and ready and that you could really take a full on punch from a man swarming you.

So I think I’m actually in the better spot because I haven’t got any illusions about my own capabilities.

I would also add that boxing has always been extremely popular among professional models (typically weighing around 50 kg) who appear dainty and elegant by most people's standards. They may appear to be waif-like and fragile but many of these girls are strong and also fully in control of their muscle mass. It is quite powerful to be on the receiving end of the assumption that you are thin and weak when you know that the person making the assumption (often an unfit male who does not know much about you) would possibly not stand a chance in a combat situation. It is also one of the reasons why a lot of models end up married to sports stars. There is an understanding there and a similar arrangement of priorities/goals which is not superficially obvious at all.

Because they like it and want to.

I couldn’t take down my partner nor could

There's also reading body language - learned from sparring. You are so close that you learn to pick up on the tiny looks or hardening of a muscle around the eye that tells you somebody is about to go for a left hook to the body or a right cross. So you know what they are thinking even before they've moved. You can tell from where they have changed their bodyweight distribution whether they're about to launch forward, it they're right or lefthanded. You can anticipate, you can dodge. You can notice things in your peripheral vision like a tensing of the arm of somebody walking past or hear the breath sounds of somebody who is preparing themselves for an attack.

A random bloke isn't expecting a woman to know what he's doing before he does it. He doesn't expect that she has the core strength and balance that means his attempt to take her off her feet fails. He expects if he grabs her hair that she'll put her hands up to her hair or freeze, not relax slightly and then use all the considerable strength in her body to launch the back of her head into his nose at speed. He expects a possible weak wristed attempt at hitting his arm or shoulder as he has her by the wrist and she pulls away, not repeated jabs to the face that render him unable to see as he loosens his grip - or a direct kick to the inside of the knee rather than the balls and if he grabs her foot, rather than snowploughing, she steps up and uses gravity to make a hit to his face all the more painful. If she can't reach his face, she knows exactly where to bring back her elbow sharp and fast to cause maximum pain or he leans over her and receives a swinging back elbow to the temple or face - and then she's off at top speed. He isn't expecting her reaction times to be so fast, her response so intense. Because she's 'just a woman'.

No, it's not guaranteed that a woman can take on any man - of course not; it's why female sport should be single sex. But it can give women a slight shift in the odds that could make the difference between escape and not.

@ToletPoster

your right I don’t believe your average “trained” woman is just able to dodge and weave a strong man much larger than her landing blows that stop him. What happens when her hits don’t know him out and he just doesn’t get comes her with strength? How is a woman much lighter going to outwrestle a larger stronger man even with experience? Life isn’t a king fu movie. You can’t lock people up or flip them around if they’re just too big and strong for you (coupled with the muscle difference between the genders).

Thisnis exactly what I’m talking about. Your “confident you could choke most untrained people out” (men or women) You shouldn’t be.

Lol. If something encourages someone to be active then that's great, doesn't matter what it is. And people can decide if the risks are worth it to them. People enjoy different things. I'm into strength training myself.

We aren’t talking about a smaller trained man beating up a larger untrained man though. Were talking about a smaller trained woman beating up a larger man (or a man the same size). A woman of the same size as a man is still going to have significant disadvantages against him unless he’s old and frail.

Im not saying this to try to tell women not to do boxing classes, I just think this is a horribly dangerous mindset to have to think you will be able to beat a lot of untrained men.

This is a great understanding of the finer points that many people simply do not realise.

Also, in sparring when I first started, getting hit even with pulled punches or kicks by a female would stun me and I couldn't think of what I should do next. Now I can put this aside.

It was years before I learned to leave my mind and calculation behind and just use the techniques I have learnt. I use to spend too much time thinking about what move I should do to counter etc. and by that time, I had lost.

@Andromachehadabadday

Bit he would big up your fighting ability knowing it was important to you wouldn’t he. This is the stuff I’m talking about, because you have trained you think you could beat men without technique - but in reality if a stronger man rushes you you will be overcome and probably not hit hard enough to put him off. There is also little chance that even in full contact fighting men are really going all out trying to cold cock women and knock them out.

What a rude reply! I thought exactly the same as @TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross . And your post is specifically about women. Why so rude in your reply

I definitely don't understand why anyone boxes or why two people battering each other is a sport

@Ceridwenn

Fair enough. I find you attitude sensible even though boxing isn’t for me. But on this very thread I see posters thinking they do have a good chance against men - that’s what I’m talking about.

@Thepeopleversuswork

But that’s the point - they should be afraid. fear of a situation which is dangerous for you is healthy. that’s the perception which boxing gives you that you can handle it which I think is dangerous.

I also don’t think those talking about sparring “full contact” against men are really talking about a man trying to knock you out or seriously hurt you - just some heavier than normal blows. I really think some of the stuff I’ve read here confirms what I though that this is unwise.