Should the Deputy Head have been allowed to do this?

[SandwhichGenerationGal]

DD has four year old twins. They attend nursery school 09.00-3.15.
Twin 1 was sent home early with a temperature. DD kept her off the next day and she developed diarrhoea. I was visiting but needed to leave at 2pm to go to work (I am a nurse). Suggested she call school and ask to collect twin 2 at 2pm so I could stay at home with twin 1 and new baby (I don’t drive and school half hour walk). DD rang school (gave reasons for wanting to collect early) and was told deputy head would need to give permission and would call back. She didn’t call so DD phoned again and was told she was in a meeting. DD then drove to the school and asked to collect twin 2. Was informed deputy head had refused permission. Suggested their dad could collect her at the normal time or she could go to after school club, (has never been before and doesn’t even know what it is). DD said neither option was acceptable. DSIL is a doctor and can’t just leave at a moments notice (of course he would if it was emergency) and twin 2 was unprepared for attending after school club for the first time). Deputy head refused point blank and DD had to come home. I ended up staying and was late for work.
When did schools become so obsessed with their attendance stats that they take priority over the child’s health and well being?
They are four FFS and not even legally required to be in school.
Was the deputy head within her rights to refuse this or is she just a power mad controlling jobsworth? DD didn’t even get into the school, it was all done over the intercom. I am livid.

You might expect a court to back the school, I sincerely hope a court would be rightly annoyed at a school behaving in such a ridiculous way. A reasonable adult would use their discretion and rightly so.

You brought up safeguarding so not such why you have now chosen to ignore the points I raised.

But from what I’ve understood there is.

The school can legally refuse to give the parent access to the premises to collect the child, and legally refuse to release a staff member to take the child to the parent. Hence in practice stopping the parent collecting the child.

I guess in theory they can’t stop it if the parent has access to the premises - ie can just walk in and get them, but a lot of schools are completely locked down with secured entry points.

Deputy he’s is right. There’s no need for the second twin to go home early. Twin should be in school not missing out because sibling is unwell.

Did you miss the fact that the child is 4yo and doesn’t legally have to be there?

The relevant law is the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 S61 which gives the Head wide powers to set and enforce rules and other measures to "regulate the conduct of pupils". This entitles the Head to decide, for example, that pupils may not leave the school other than at lunchtime or the end of the day other than in exceptional circumstances. As with all other measures under this section, that can be enforced regardless of parental opposition.

I get that that permits the head to impose the rule and punish pupils if they don't obey it, @prh47bridge. However, what I'm not clear about is whether that enables the head to impose rules that are binding on parents. Does it? If, say, a child walks to the school gates, meets their parent and walks out, is there anything the school could do to prevent it? How about if the parent comes into the school to take their child out, is there anything the school is entitled to do to stop them?

In all honesty, in those situations I would be more worried about the school's security than the legal aspects! There is no way a parent or any other adult coming into the school should be able to get to a classroom to take a child. I would also be concerned if a primary school child could just walk out, or if a parent could grab a child that was close to the gate.

The school's powers are primarily about regulating the behaviour of pupils, not parents. However, as with any landowner, the school has the right to control who comes onto the premises, so has every right to stop a parent coming into school to take a child or to use reasonable force to eject a parent who is behaving disruptively.

For a primary school, their duty to protect the child means it shouldn't be possible for a child to walk out with a parent or anyone else. When we get to secondary school, of course, it is different. A secondary school child is generally free to leave the premises at any time, with or without a parent, although the school is entitled to punish them for doing so.

I was thinking more of a parent coming into the playground to collect their child, @prh47bridge. In most primary schools I have come across it would be quite simple for that to happen, because there will be a succession of adults coming freely into the school grounds, e.g. school inspectors, parents visiting the head, people delivering stuff, visiting therapists, etc etc.

So am I right in thinking that there actually isn't any legislation that says schools can prevent parents from taking their children out of school?

It’s impossible to get on to the grounds of our primary school without being buzzed in by reception (standard village primary). I thought this was fairly common nowadays.

Deputy head is being an arse. Under 5's don't affect a schools attendance figures.

In primary schools I've visited, either adults have to be buzzed in by the receptionist to get onto the grounds at all or they can't get beyond the school's reception area unless the receptionist buzzes them through. Indeed, in most schools I visit it is both. I would expect Ofsted to have serious concerns if a parent or any other adult could get as far as a classroom.

@prh47bridge I disagree with where you place the focus in this discussion.

The gates/buzzers are not there to prevent parents from collecting their children in an emergency... 🙄Or is that what they teach in "safeguarding"?

I have collected my child early from school a couple of times with no issues at all.

Seems that most schools interpret the law (that is clearly open to interpretation for a reason) in the right way. Until this prick of a Head (Head of a prick? 😁) rolls around...

I never said they were.

That isn't about interpreting the law. The fact that the law permits a school to prevent parents taking their children out of school halfway through a session does not mean that schools have to stop parents taking their children. As I have said several times on this thread, the Deputy Head did not break the law, but I don't think they did the right thing in this situation.

The law IS open to interpretation - it's open to school's interpretation on what's deemed a necessity (and safe) when it comes to collecting a child early.

There is NO law that bans parents from collecting their children whenever.

Most schools seem to be able to "hack" it and get their decisions and policies right, which is according to common sense.

Similar to Covid laws - a shop COULD enforce face masks and refuse entry based on lack of one. Well, how many do?

And @prh47bridge I'm not saying that you belive that there is a law banning parents from collecting their children.

You just focus too much on "But they could" That's not the point. Cause they don't. And they really shouldn't. The law is in place to protect children from possible parental harm, not to stop parents from attending hospital, or similar.

I had a restraining order against my ex. Without this law he could have just rocked up to the school to collect the kids early. Here the school exercised their rights within this law to only hand the kids to me (despite him being their parent too).

Anyways, I'm glad that we all can see that the nursery head was hugely in the wrong here (and for many reasons too! )

It would be overzealous in primary but for it to have happened in a nursery setting for 3/4 year olds is ridiculous. The more I hear about school nurseries on here the more I question how some of them seem to run. They seem much less nurturing than a private one. To put into context in a private nursery, there’d be no issue taking my 3yo out at any point, no question about a holiday or leaving for the day out. To deny a 4yo an hour is ridiculous.

That is not a question of interpreting the law. You are confusing interpretation (which is about whether the school can do something) with implementation. So, for example, since it has been to the Supreme Court it is clear that any unauthorised absence can lead to a parent being fined. That is interpretation. However, most LAs will not actually fine a parent unless there is a pattern of absence. That is not interpretation, that is implementation. You may view that as being pedantic but, in law, that is a very important distinction.

To tackle your second post, the reason I have focussed on the law is the number of people claiming on this thread that the Deputy Head broke the law and disputing the law (and he was the Deputy Head of a primary school, not a nursery head). If there had not been anyone on here claiming the Deputy Head had broken the law, my posts would have been very different.

@prh47bridge - how do you know the deputy head was a he and that it was a primary school? The OP refers to a nursery school and refers to the DH as she. Nursery schools are for 3-4 year olds and are pre-reception age, implying the OP’s 4-year old will not be 5 until September at the earliest, and therefore not at primary school?

The sex of the Deputy Head is irrelevant , makes no different to the rules around taking children out of school.

*difference

Apologies - I see the OP says the deputy head was female. I wrongly thought they had been referred to as male.

I missed the mention of "nursery school" in the OP, but the description with the mention of attendance stats, compulsory school age, after school clubs, etc., left the impression that the twins are in Reception.

To follow up on that, as I said in one of my posts, pre-school settings do not have the same powers as schools. If this is a pre-school setting, the school did not have any right to refuse to release the child.

The relevant law is the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 S61 which gives the Head wide powers to set and enforce rules and other measures to "regulate the conduct of pupils". This entitles the Head to decide, for example, that pupils may not leave the school other than at lunchtime or the end of the day other than in exceptional circumstances. As with all other measures under this section, that can be enforced regardless of parental opposition.

Theres a very big difference between not allowing children to leave school at lunchtime and not handing a child over to their parents or legal guardian. The schools rights extend to the care and safety of children under their care while in school. The school would be on a very sticky wicket refusing to return a child to their parent, without the presence of a legal order preventing the parent being able to collect the child.

Theres no way I’d have left school without my child having attended to collect them. The schools legal duties and powers don’t supersede mine as a parent.

as @JudgeRindersMinder said the mistake is ASKING when you should be TELLING others what is going to happen/you need them to do.
Same goes for Dr's receptionists too

Deputy head was unreasonable. This was a nursery child for goodness sake.
I would complain in writing.