Should the Deputy Head have been allowed to do this?

[SandwhichGenerationGal]

DD has four year old twins. They attend nursery school 09.00-3.15.
Twin 1 was sent home early with a temperature. DD kept her off the next day and she developed diarrhoea. I was visiting but needed to leave at 2pm to go to work (I am a nurse). Suggested she call school and ask to collect twin 2 at 2pm so I could stay at home with twin 1 and new baby (I don’t drive and school half hour walk). DD rang school (gave reasons for wanting to collect early) and was told deputy head would need to give permission and would call back. She didn’t call so DD phoned again and was told she was in a meeting. DD then drove to the school and asked to collect twin 2. Was informed deputy head had refused permission. Suggested their dad could collect her at the normal time or she could go to after school club, (has never been before and doesn’t even know what it is). DD said neither option was acceptable. DSIL is a doctor and can’t just leave at a moments notice (of course he would if it was emergency) and twin 2 was unprepared for attending after school club for the first time). Deputy head refused point blank and DD had to come home. I ended up staying and was late for work.
When did schools become so obsessed with their attendance stats that they take priority over the child’s health and well being?
They are four FFS and not even legally required to be in school.
Was the deputy head within her rights to refuse this or is she just a power mad controlling jobsworth? DD didn’t even get into the school, it was all done over the intercom. I am livid.

Thanks for the update OP. I’m glad that your daughter has made a formal complaint. I hope something comes of it.

Is it a nursery attached to a school? Will they be going there when they move into reception? I’d consider reevaluating how you feel about moving forward with this school.

Also, as a mum of a 5 year old, I totally agree with the points you make regarding the after school club being unsuitable. On top of that- who was to know that they wouldn't also come down with what their sibling had!
In an unfamiliar situation!

The bottom line is (no pun intended) you and your DD know them better than anyone. Including the school.

10+ years primary teacher and I’ve never known to refuse a child to leave like this. Let alone a nursery child of non statutory age! I have worked with my fair share of bossy DHs.

Power hungry

Yes, there could be a point where the school's actions were Wednesbury unreasonable but the law on that point hasn't been tested in relation to this legislation. Until it is, we don't know what, if anything, the courts would regard as so unreasonable as to be unlawful.

The relevant law applies to schools, not nurseries. A school has wide ranging powers to regulate pupils regardless of whether they are of compulsory school age. A nursery does not have any such powers, even if it is attached to a school.

Unless there is a safeguarding concern or an existing court order schools cannot refuse to release a child into the care of a parent. That was the advice given by the local authority legal department I used to work in.

Wow. This is one thing I hated about school attendance in the UK.

I was amazed when I returned to Aus and picked up dd1 early one day as she was sick and the reception lady said dd2 will be here shortly, we've just sent for her.

The knew I didn't want to have to come back with a sick dc and that I was capable of making plans for the next day with more notice.

I'd be seriously considering removing DC from a school like yours OP.

@prh47bridge - if the behaviour of that DHT was a common occurrence in schools, you can guarantee the legislation would end up being tested in court. And in any event, as this child is still nursery age, not even old enough to be in a school reception class, you have agreed that the nursery school did not therefore have the legal authority to keep hold of the child, anyway.

The DHT’s behaviour towards the parent of a 4-year old child who had a perfectly reasonable explanation for wanting to collect her child early was patently unreasonable. The school knew the twin was ill, as it had sent the child home the day before, so knew this wasn’t likely to be a case of wanting to get away for a jolly, long weekend.

Whilst it is sometimes possible to find someone else to help collect at the last minute, any rational and reasonable school would know this is not always the case and would not behave so outrageously towards a parent who had not shown a pattern of behaviour to indicate that they had a generally cavalier attitude towards school attendance. I would also be most surprised if a court did not find the age of the child in question relevant when deciding on the reasonableness of a school’s behaviour. As for the offer of after school club - that would be very reasonable if the parent’s choice, but unreasonable to force it on the parent as the only option as a result of the school’s refusal to release early. Making a nurse late for work is not a reasonable solution to the dilemma of when to pick up your 4-year old from a nursery school.

@prh47bridge - ps or is there such a thing as a “nursery school” in law, rather than just name, that has the power to retain 3 and 4-year olds against their parents’ will, unlike a pre-school, a nursery, or a nursery class attached to a school, which have no such legal entitlement?

School age Reception children, yabu as there is a legal requirement to be in school.

School Nursery for 4 year olds??? No legal requirement.

It's not ideal for people to pick the children up early or come in late, or leave mid way through, and believe me, we have parents who think they can use School as a drop in Creche, but that's not the case with a valid reason on a rare occasion so yanbu.

I think a number of posters here are wrongly thinking the twins are at school and are of legal age to attend reception.

They are (from what the OP says) attending a NURSERY that is attached to a school - so it is under the umbrella of the school and does have a little more structure and formal teacher than a private nursery BUT is not compulsory to attend and children can still go part time.

So imagine this scenario were to play out in an independent nursery and how ridiculous that would be.

@SandwhichGenerationGal I'm glad DD has made a formal complaint.

I hope DT1 is feeling better today & no one else gets it, especially the baby!!

Let us know how it goes!

(ignore the goady posters, they argue black is white just to be annoying!!)

@prh47bridge does that seriously include 4yos who don’t even have to be in school??

School are being unreasonable. I've had to take one of my children out because the other had an appointment and there's no way I could get back in time, and it wasn't a problem.

And if they're 4, they don't legally need to be there anyway I assume?

Well summarised @RosesAndHellebores a definite complaint warranted.

Most schools will allow a sibling to be collected at the same time without this full scenario.
It should only be refused if the same family have previously abused it.

My children would not be going to that school.

@SandwhichGenerationGal - thank you for updates, I’m sure this thread would appreciate it if you can let us know the outcome next week.

Your DD will probably need the situation clarified for future occasions with 2 (and eventually 3) DCs in the actual school itself. Although obvs there will be opportunity to warn the twins about the possibility of after school club if strictly needed another time (and maybe even have a few ‘dummy’ sessions in case baby is ill)

@prh47bridge - thank you for sharing your wisdom
(and saving me from looking it up)

The legislation to which I refer concerns schools. It applies to pupils of all ages in Reception and above regardless of whether they are of compulsory school age. It does not apply to a nursery, pre-school, nursery class, something calling itself a nursery school, etc. Those settings do not have the same powers as schools.

A child who is below compulsory school age does not have to attend school. Attendance measures such as fines for unauthorised absence do not apply to them. However, the provisions for governing the conduct of pupils apply regardless of age.

What this means is that, if the parent of a child who is under compulsory school age chooses to take their child out of school during the lunch break, there is nothing the school can do about it. They can't stop the parent taking their child unless there are concerns for the child's safety or a court order, nor can they fine the parent over unauthorised absence. However, if the parent wants to take their child out halfway through the afternoon, that is at the school's discretion.

If it was after lunch time registers then early collection wouldn't affect attendance as they are already marked in. I think the deputy head was being a very odd.

Thanks @prh47bridge That was really interesting

Yes attendance is important but this is so OTT from DH. Firstly, school isn't compulsory until aged 5 so your kids don't even have to be there at all.
Secondly, unless instructed by police or social services schools cannot refuse to let you collect your own child ffs.
Thirdly, unless your kids are frequently off with very dire attendance generally then it wouldn't have killed the school to be supportive of your extenuating circumstances on this occasion.

I say this as someone who works in a school and has to approve/not approve absence requests etc.

Thank you again everybody. I am a long time lurker on here but only my second post. Your replies will definitely help to inform my DD response when she hears back from the head. DD is not on Mumsnet but I have suggested she look through your comments.
@ prh47bridge - I don’t know what your job is but you have helped so much. Thank you for taking the time it is appreciated.
I will let you know the outcome.

Wow. I honestly don't care what they or anyone here either thinks about the 'need' or otherwise to take the child home.

The problem here is that apparently a parent is not allowed to take their own child home when they elect to do so. Their own child.

The school doesn't get to say no. They can take any action they see fit regarding attendance issues, but hold my child hostage? Fuck off.

Deputy head being absurd.nursery class completely non compulsory and not relevant to school attendance statistics.

However, if the parent wants to take their child out halfway through the afternoon, that is at the school's discretion.

It's not though. There's no legal means by which the school can stop a parent collecting their own child.

They could (possibly) choose to withdraw a nursery place for non attendance etc but it's highly unlikely.

I thought it was a school and still thought it was unreasonable but a bloody nursery!

I would put a complaint in

Wouldn't matter if it was secondary school. The parent decides if and when to take their child home.