My love of Gone with the Wind and other problematic films/literature

[RedSquirrel111]

Interested in other opinions on this.

I first read Gone with the Wind in school and since then have gone through 3 copies. It's my favourite comfort book that I re-read a couple of times a year. I also adore the film, Vivien Leigh and the gorgeous technicolor cinematography.

However it is undeniably and explicitly racist. Both the film and the book, more so the book (if you can measure such things). I fell in love with Scarlett as the first 'fuck you' 3 dimensional female character I'd ever read, and I still love her.

Do you read it as 'a book of its time'? (With a critical eye but still enjoy it?) Or is it one that whilst I don't want to say 'cancelled' should be resigned to history in the way that, say, birth of a nation, has been?

When it comes to artists I'm very much 'separate the art from the creator' and therefore have no problem reading Roald Dahl for example.

However this is different as its the subject matter and not just the author.

I'd especially be grateful for the view of any BAME women - especially if American!!!

Sorry, I didn't mean to post this under AIBU

You are aware of the issues. Presumably you are not racist after reading it? The world has learnt to be better with that particular issue (even though slavery in other forms still exists) and as Churchill said 'a Nation that forgets it’s past has no future'

Thank you. That's a good way of looking at it.
As it was written in the 30s I kind of think it stands up as an example of southern pre-WW2 race culture.
But then I may be making excuses as I still enjoy it so much

I would think this book should never be cancelled. How can you understand society at that time (also the society at the time it was published) if you remove the books demonstrating people's attitudes, however flawed they seem now.

(White British woman) I think it's more dangerous to try to pretend racism didn't exist in the past, or even to acknowledge but cover it up and not talk about it. As white people we have to recognise that white privilege is built on centuries of racism, and books which exhibit this, as long as we can see it for what it is, are part of that ongoing education.

It depicted Slavery which happened
There was a lot of terrible things that happened in times gone by we can't ignore them and pretend it never happened.

This gets discussed in the context of the National Curriculum, frequently. For example, Y9 often read Of Mice and Men, which portrays racist and disabilist attitudes and normalises them as part of the context of the Great Depression and its aftermath. It's presented as such in lessons, as an era from which we can learn.
If we erase all historical discrimination, how can we teach children to be vigilant against discrimination in future?

I think books make fantastic historical records of the values and norms of societies and help us understand what life could like for many people. These are obviously largely written by middle class white men (not all but many) so context is important but when written records from other perspectives don't exist and oral histories can be unreliable (thinking about older texts and further back in time here).

It's important we're critical of these texts but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be read, particularly as part of a school curriculum where these views can be challenged and learned from. Historical literature has so much to offer but have to be understood in the context of those times while recognising racism/sexual assault/murder/abuse/etc were never ok.

I'm struggling in a similar way as I absolutely adored this book as a teen and it was the first film I loved and watched over and over. I find it difficult to revisit now as I can't get past how problematic it is!

My daughter is now the age I was when I first read it and I really don't know wether or not to encourage her to read it. Part of me wonders if she'll be so enraged by the racism and mysoginy that she'll hate it as she's a lot more clued up about these issues than I was as a teen.

But, part of me really doesn't want her to read it, love it, and then be embarrassed or uncomfortable about discussing it with her friends who are POC.

Its a social document. It not only describes and helps a reader to understand some of the key issues of the time through the media of fiction and the eyes of different characters, it shows the social perspectives and the way of looking at the issues at the time it was written. It is valuable for many reasons, tracking the progress and evolution of how social attitudes changed, how fiction dealt with slavery. Uncle Tom's Cabin played a similar role.

We cannot just hide this and pretend it never happened; the history and understanding it, properly, is part of evolving beyond it. This ridiculous cancel culture/don't touch anything contaminated just stops all understanding and thought, and will just obliterate any learning from that period being possible. It's afraid of learning. It's afraid of connecting with and understanding complexities and people from another time and place. And there's something childish and rather stupidly superior about it too. As if the people of the time were inferior, instead of being of their time, of their knowledge, experience, social culture, history.

That interests me as I've always thought it as feminist. I think Scarlett is such a brilliant character - she went through such a journey of 'southern belle' to 'hard hearted business woman'
And her internal struggle that she would be like her mother as soon as she had the time.... that part I thought was revolutionary

I don’t think we should “cancel” historic literature. However I suppose they’re self-cancelling in a way - I had never read GWTW and was interested in it as being a classic, a depiction of the time and so on. But I really couldn’t get past the way the black characters are portrayed, even in the context of the period it was written and the period it shows. I imagine lots of people would feel like that so it would just drop out of favour as has happened to countless books and films over time.

As if the people of the time were inferior, instead of being of their time, of their knowledge, experience, social culture, history.

Quite. Do these people ever stop to think about aspects of their own society and culture that won't be so palatable in the future?

I don't see any good that can come of cancelling GWTW. We won't have any historic literature left if we get carried away with that kind of stupidity.

I'm not really sure how it's racist? It depicts black people as having injustice done to them, when Scarlett causes the menfolk to go out on her behalf. It shows black enslaved people acting with dignity and grace.

Yes, it shows black servants. But is that inherently racist? It is a snapshot of how things were. It doesn't treat the black characters as "lesser", quite the opposite. Many of the white characters are shown in far worse light.

The exception perhaps is Prissy.

I LOVE "Gone With the Wind" - both the novel and the Vivien Leigh film (it's my favourite film of all time next to Godfather). She was the perfect Scarlett (best performance by a female actress ever in my opinion). I think Scarlett O'Hara is the best female heroine of all time. HOWEVER, the novel is quite shocking in its content and certainly romanticises the slave-owning South and the KKK!

I read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" afterwards for the other side of the story. "Uncle Tom's Cabin" over "Gone with the Wind" every time.

To me, my main concern with depictions of racism (or other ‘isms) in fiction would be if the person reading it isn’t aware the attitudes or behaviour depicted are unacceptable today, and therefore might be influenced by them. I’d be more concerned about children reading Enid Blyton than an adult reading GWTW, certainly in your case as you are clearly aware of the problematic aspects.

This is an interesting article that focuses on African Americans who protested against Gone With the Wind at the time. So it's not just modern sensibilities seeing it in a 21st century light.

www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/movies/gone-with-the-wind-battle.html

I loved the book and I LOVE the film. I remember staying up late to watch it with my mum one weekend and being captivated by Scarlett in the red dress
she wears when Rhett forces her to go to Melly's house... Scarlett is tough and strong and scheming and Vivien Leigh is so watchable.

There are bits that are terrible in it. Mainly the marital rape and racism. There was a disclaimer on when beforehand when i last saw it on tv. But you can still enjoy it whilst recognising its faults.
But it is a piece of history in itself.... Hattie McDaniel first african american to win an oscar... in a ceremony held in a venue that she would otherwise have not been allowed into.

I don't agree with cancelling films or books. Its the thin end of the wedge and we'd end up cancelling masterpieces because they dont suit modern sensitivities.

Thats interesting....

I can cope with the book and film, I loved the film when I first saw it. The thing I couldn't cope with was the way Hattie McDaniel was treated at the Oscars and that her colleagues let it happen. Can't forgive that.

Her story is very sad.

I only read about that recently, that she had to sit in a separate room from the white nominees.

Hattie McDaniel first african american to win an oscar... in a ceremony held in a venue that she would otherwise have not been allowed into

I remember reading about this. She was put at the back of the room at a table with only a couple of other black actors/actresses for company, while the white stars had pride of place. Awful.

When you think of her turning up that night in her beautiful blue dress with gardenias in her hair and how she must have felt as she was shown to that table at the back, unable to sit with her costars it makes me want to weep.

She died in debt to the IRS and her wish to be buried in the Hollywood Cemetery was denied as it was a segregated cemetery. How sick is that, a segregated cemetery.

When you think of her turning up that night in her beautiful blue dress with gardenias in her hair and how she must have felt as she was shown to that table at the back, unable to sit with her costars it makes me want to weep.

I agree, there's something so sad about this

Heartbreaking isn't it, not to mention that she couldn't even go to the premier in Atlanta with the other stars. How could the other stars do it, Clark Gable was supposed to be her friend.