DD accused of cheating at school

[Grizzzly]

DD (11) is working on a school project with another girl in her class. The kids have been paired up by the teacher and the kids got no say on who they had to work with.

DD is quite academic and enjoys her school work and is very much enjoying this project. The other girl however is not on the same page, she isn’t interested in it and when the girls meet up after school to work on it the other girl just wants to watch YouTube videos or play games.

The bits the other girl has managed to do are (in DDs worse) “scruffy and incorrect”. DD has got frustrated and has redone the other girls work but still credited it to the other girl.

the teacher picked up on this and said she could tell DD had written what was meant to be written by the other girl. She questioned the girls, showed them the “suspicious work” and the other girl said “I didn’t do that”. DD then had to admit that she’d done it. She got into a lot of trouble and then told the teacher “well I don’t want to be held back by her, I want to win”. This got her into more trouble.

AIBU to side with DD on this? The best project wins a prize and will have their work displayed.

I totally get what you’re saying, which is why I think it’s a teacher communication issue.

The other girl didn’t meet the brief. The brief should have not been so hard that some may fail at it, giving the impression to the more able students paired with them, like op’s dd, that her team couldn’t win. That is unfair. The children were told a page had to be filled and the girl didn’t fill a page. We don’t know if The teacher would have done the same as you and an 11 year old certainly couldn’t have anticipated this outcome. Therefore, I’m more thinking the teacher didn’t think the pitfalls through well enough and didn’t listen when op’s dd relayed her concerns.

Therefore this should be a learning experience for the teacher as well as op’s dd. If I were so inclined to contact the teacher, that is how I would frame it as a parent. Not in those words, which is why I said in my last post, op should ask the teacher what her dd should have done differently.

I said that the way she approached the adult may have made a difference and in order to illustrate it gave some examples of how giving an effectively similar message in different ways could change someone's reaction.

I also said that this would be expecting too much on the teacher's behalf.

I agree with PP who talked about adults forgetting that children are less experienced at these things.

What do we tell children? To try their best and work hard. OP’s DD missed the point of this group activity because nobody told her that the most important part of this exercise was teamwork. She thought it was about winning/working hard, because there was a prize.

She tried to solicit help from an adult, but was shunned.

We expect children to be mind-readers, and then blame them when they aren’t.

(Also a teacher btw).

Why are people insistent cheating is thr wrting word? It perfectly describes what OPs DD did…

act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage
She forged handwriting and tried to pass it off as the other girls (dishonest) which isn’t fair to the other groups who worked together. She was seeking an advantage to win a prize. Understandable but it was cheating.

Semantics aside, this does lie squarely with the teacher. When DD said her classmate wasn’t pulling her weight, she should have acted then, very poor teaching and I’d probably be minded to email the school about this, because what else would that teacher think is “telling tales”.

I think the way you’ve handled this is good op, by saying you understand why she did it but explaining why it wasn’t a good idea you’ve shown your support and empathy which goes a long way at this age.

"I Respect your perspectives and analysis, just wanted your view, that by saying the ops dd wanted to win, it makes her sound awful, but how should of her dd phrased her comment better ?"

She said "I don't want to be held back by her, I want to win." In front of the other girl. Imagine being that girl, or her parent. No regard for someone else's feelings at all. I doubt it was the first time that girl had been made to feel thick and like a hindrance, but blatant to do it in front of the teacher when already in trouble. It doesn't speak to an awful lot of kindness or empathy.

"The other girl didn’t meet the brief."

And that will keep happening in every piece of group work she does, throughout secondary, university and work. Surely we have all experienced the person who can't or won't pull their weight. A skill learnt through group work is how to deal with such situations. Submit the work and let the teacher address the issue. Talk discreetly to the teacher before the hand in date. Don't remove someone else's work and replace it with your own, not tell them, defend yourself with talk of how they are 'holding you back.'

She did talk to the teacher. She got dismissed and told off for tale telling.

Re the other child be lazy, on you tube etc, maybe the Ops daughter was always going to correct it, undermines the other child, criticised the child to the point there didn’t seem any point and she wouldn’t live up to the Ops child’s expectations therefore didn’t see the point.

There was one of these in my daughters year and over time she eventually lost her friends because of it, no one wanted to work with her, it was her way or no way and she would secretly amend the work before handing it in. The other children were perfectly capable but the other child was a pain in the arse.

I put YABU, but I do this the strategy of teachers pairing up people to work in groups can be quite/very annoying. This sort of thing is usually done to help the weaker in the pair not the stronger.

Just tell your daughter it is not worth worrying about, and get her to focus on different things.

Personally, I think the group thing might work better if people were pooled together at random, rather than the teacher doing their own social engineering.

maybe the Ops daughter was always going to correct it, undermines the other child, criticised the child to the point there didn’t seem any point and she wouldn’t live up to the Ops child’s expectations therefore didn’t see the point.

Maybe= pure unadulterated speculation

Your DD deleted/destroyed the others girls work in order to put her own contributions in instead without consulting her project partner and then brazenly tried to pass off her deception in the full knowledge that work was supposed to be done by both of them. Of course she's in trouble and you should absolutely be backing the school on this.

"She did talk to the teacher. She got dismissed and told off for tale telling."

I had understood that to mean that she had attempted to blame the other girl, in that moment, while being told off by the teacher. Apologies if I have misunderstood. If she did indeed discreetly approach the teacher ahead of the hand-in date then the teacher should have taken the time to give her some proper advice about how to handle the situation.

"This sort of thing is usually done to help the weaker in the pair not the stronger."

I disagree. Sounds like op's dd still has a lot of social skills to learn.

"Personally, I think the group thing might work better if people were pooled together at random, rather than the teacher doing their own social engineering."

Well then the best work would be done by the groups chock-full of clever, motivated kids and the pair of SEN children would never get started. Mixed ability is usually the least-worst option and useful for the clever kids to understand that some people struggle academically, in every lesson, every day.

Fair enough I can see how you might interpret it that way. Maybe OP can clarify if she comes back.

She did not delete or destroy the other girls work. She edited it and corrected the misinformation in the girls work. Work was done by both of them, albeit most of the work by OPs DD. The requirement that a group project have “work supposed to be done by both” teammates- that is such a vague requirement for a teacher to set on a group project anyway. It doesn’t prohibit you from editing or correcting your team mates work to make the entire project better- which is not only allowed but expected IRL on work projects. The teacher should have been more clear from the outset what the point of the group project was. By offering a prize for the best overall project the teacher sent the wrong message that the overall project as a whole mattered more than learning teamwork or individual contributions.

Add to that the fact that the DD sought guidance in private with the teacher in advance of doing this because the other girl was doing fuck all and was told off for telling tales and sent away with no guidance….it’s the teachers fault she resorted to such an extreme measure to ensure the group project was overall done well.

"it’s the teachers fault she resorted to such an extreme measure to ensure the group project was overall done well."

She removed the other girl's work, faked her handwriting and intentionally added spelling errors to fool the teacher. I think she knew what she was doing was wrong.

Supporting your daughter on this is telling her that other peoples contributions don't matter and don't teach her team work.
I find it worrying how many people think this is ok behaviour. Yes she wants to win but it's a team work project. The work the other student did might not be up to your daughters standards but what it that was the best they could do?
What your daughter did will most likely make her classmate feel like shit, and it doesn't show your child in a good light.

Thank you for this. I’ve long thought group work highly problematic. Especially when students start to rate each other’s contributions and this influences their final mark. However, it is still expected to form a substantial part of their assessment.

The brain in girls starts to go through a massive rewire at about 11. My dd was an absolute headless chicken at this age, as were her friends. They did things, they wouldn’t have dreamt of doing at 9 or now or 13. Boys it’s a little later. Idk how much it affects their behaviour as I don’t have a boy, just anecdotally what friends have said about boys at about 13. However, teachers of children this age should be aware of what is going on with them developmentally.

It sounds as if she resorted to this measure because the teacher didn’t want to help her out beforehand. Yes, of course what she did was wrong. But I don’t think it’s so terrible due to her age. What she said about the other girl was also unkind. She was exasperated that her partner didn’t want to work and handed in shoddy, incorrect information and this showed in her comments. In my experience, girls are absolutely brutal at this age.

Talking about what obstacles she will face when she’s at university and beyond is so far away for a child, who is only year 7 or even year 6 that it won’t even really register. My year 9 dd is only really cottoning on now.

The fundamental problem here is that the emphasis on the group work methodology is not compatible with the prize for the best work (which sounds like the best outcome).

The teacher planned the project poorly.

But yes, OP, your DD was focused on the prize to the extent that at minimum she forged work. In context I think this was understandable but it wasn’t great. We don’t have enough info to know the attitude she brought to the teacher when accused of tattling and we don’t know how her interactions with the other girl went. If we’d been flies on the wall there is no way to know where our sympathy would lie. Having said that, I am intuitively frustrated for your DD

I also dislike group work, and my uni’s emphasis on it for UGs, for reasons given by PPs. It really only works when everyone has the same work ethic, and abilities are not too disparate.

"Talking about what obstacles she will face when she’s at university and beyond is so far away for a child, who is only year 7 or even year 6 that it won’t even really register. My year 9 dd is only really cottoning on now."

Of course. But not too young to learn empathy, kindness, that removing someone else's work is wrong, that saying 'I didn't want to be held back by her' is wrong. She might not understand the full implications, but her mum does, and should respond accordingly imo.

Saying it's the teachers fault for badly planning the project, saying it's the other pupils fault for not doing the work, saying that you understand why she did it, all send a message that I personally don't think is useful for her wider development.

As a teacher, the kind, patient children absolutely shine out at you. Mould her into one of those.

YANBU! Fucking hated group work at school and at uni. It's absolute torture for academic /ambitious kids and teaches them nothing. If anything, it creates animosity and disdain. I ALWAYS had to pick up the slack for the lazy kids who just wanted to pass. Your DD didn't cheat, the other girl did!

"Your DD didn't cheat, the other girl did!"

Well obviously she didn't cheat, she just submitted work that wasn't very good.

Gotta feel for your DD here - the teacher would have been well aware that she would want to do well & would work hard and probably also knew the girl she partnered her with wouldn't.

Mixed ability group work can be great but obviously issues like this can arise. It won't be the first time the teacher has come across this but she does have to point out that it's plagiarism & thar it's not OK.

A harsh lesson learned for your DD, there. I'd be taking her for a little treat to cheer her up. Hopefully she won't be put in any more lose-lose situations at school.

@DrBlackbird

Glad you found it useful! At the school I teach at (rural mixed comp), we do almost no group work. Most of our lessons are delivered via silent, independent tasks, except for e.g. drama performances, Mfl speaking tasks and music rehearsals (work is still assessed individually). Students do get some opportunity to discuss ideas but these are limited to small segments of the lesson.

Standards have soared since we began insisting on individual, independent completion of low-stakes tasks throughout our lessons.