DD accused of cheating at school

[Grizzzly]

DD (11) is working on a school project with another girl in her class. The kids have been paired up by the teacher and the kids got no say on who they had to work with.

DD is quite academic and enjoys her school work and is very much enjoying this project. The other girl however is not on the same page, she isn’t interested in it and when the girls meet up after school to work on it the other girl just wants to watch YouTube videos or play games.

The bits the other girl has managed to do are (in DDs worse) “scruffy and incorrect”. DD has got frustrated and has redone the other girls work but still credited it to the other girl.

the teacher picked up on this and said she could tell DD had written what was meant to be written by the other girl. She questioned the girls, showed them the “suspicious work” and the other girl said “I didn’t do that”. DD then had to admit that she’d done it. She got into a lot of trouble and then told the teacher “well I don’t want to be held back by her, I want to win”. This got her into more trouble.

AIBU to side with DD on this? The best project wins a prize and will have their work displayed.

Why is it a lie?

Because an 11 year old shouldn't be expected to make the same call as an adult would and should be encouraged to say ONLY what they know to be true - in this case that her work partner was not working and was on YouTube.

It's then up to the adults to do their job!

I am sorry but it isn't a lie to say someone is finding it hard when they are.

Whether they are finding it hard because they aren't putting effort in, or because they can't do it, either way they are finding it hard to contribute.

I think adults do sometimes forget that children are much less experienced. What we might think is mildly frustrating, even character-building, can become a huge source of worry and frustration to a child.

Then if the child feels powerless or not supported when they try to tell somebody, they will try to fix it — often clumsily — because they don't have the experience to manage it better.

I'm remembering year eight where we all had to do two languages, but you had the option of which. I was so frustrated with people messing around in one, and the teacher not doing a lot, that I wrote to the Head of Year suggesting they should be allowed to do one language in all the slots rather than messing up the second language for people who wanted to do it. Looking back, the teachers knew that sone people hated languages and were just sitting through the classes because they had to, but at 12/13 I couldn't understand that. The HoY was very kind to me, made it clear that she didn't want to know who they were or exactly what they were doing wrong, but she'd talk to the whole year about respecting teachers' and other pupils' time (and unexpectedly pop in during the lessons!).

So I do understand the frustrated firebrand feeling! And the relief when somebody better equipped to deal with it takes over, which the OP's DD didn't get.

Think again. YOU make that assumption, you make that call based on your experience, your own perspective

An 11 year old cannot make the same leap. What if the other kid was being simply lazy and was reported as having difficulty? That's not ideal either.

So a kid is asked to tell the truth, not make an assumption that is likely not be a lie because they are 11!

It's not rocket science. You seem to want one 11 year old to apply your experience to the situation whilst leaving the other 11 year on watching YouTube with no compunction to talk to an adult!

Looking back, I do cringe a bit about my very formal letter with its set out options of what I thought would be best, and wonder what the HoY thought.'

But it was the only way I could think of to deal with it at the time (short of standing up in class and shouting at the noisy ones!), so I think teachers should be tolerant of pupils trying their best but going about to t in the wrong way.

I would expect OP's DD to be told that being deceitful was not acceptable, and give her low marks as a result (or make them redo it). But I'd be sympathetic that she was worried about it and didn't know how to handle it.

That's assuming the 11 yo could correctly identify what she saw as disinterest and lack of effort as struggling.

Something that plenty of adults, including professionals working with children can't often do.

Despite your experience of working with kids you seem set to paint the other child as a victim, OP's DD as the villain and completely ignore the many failings of the teacher .

Maybe try to remember that the CHILD you think is so awful,hurtful ,lacking in empathy and understanding etc. is only 11 herself.

Well that backfired spectacularly didn't it?

Basically your daughter ignored the instructions, took over the whole project, undermining the other pupil in the process and showed she wasn't a team player. Not a good look.

Has she thought that maybe the contribution from the other pupil was good for her? Not everyone is academic and some children have SEN and find this kind of task difficult.

Your daughter should not have corrected another students work, sounds very entitled!

A eurka candidate in the making, I understand your dd frustrations.

I understand and respect your perspectives, but if the quality can compromise the project, would it not be better for the dd to be in charge ?

Once again.
There IS evidence that this child is less competent. Her work is "scruffy", short, misspelled and inaccurate

Now theoretically she could be a bright child not bothering, but her spelling would still be ok. You don't forget how to spell if you are writing lazily.

Now I don't necessarily think that the teacher was right to tell her off for "tattling", but it suggests that he (or she) found the comment irritating. All I was saying is that this might have been because of what the OP's child said or the way they said it. As I said, the teacher obviously had too high expectations of the child in this instance.

Our group had a presentation to give at university level, for one of the modules and it was thanks to one student taking the initiative and rewriting our sections that thankfully helped us complete the assignment, but yes I had been busy studying other topics instead.

The point of a group or paired takes is to work together. The teacher obviously knows the relative abilities and would have seen clearly what was your dd work and what belonged to the other student. The best project will probably not be the best academically but the best in terms of each person contributing and working together. By redoing the other girls work your dd has also sent a message to the other student that she is not good enough. Working with others is a skill. Your daughter lied and did not show this skill. You should be explaining to her that she misread this one.

@Ellie56 and some children with SEN are very academic and would find the lack of work and disinterest of their teammate very frustrating and anxiety inducing, particularly if it would affect their own mark/success/recognition.

We have children whose meltdowns are mainly triggered by other children doing the "wrong" thing.

Then the teacher shouldn't have said that the best project will get a prize and be displayed. She should've emphasised it's about teamwork and working together and not quality of the work.

And once again @DrRuthGalloway that is YOUR interpretation. I am not even disagreeing with you.

I am just saying that expecting another 11 year old to make the same deduction you have is ridiculous!

Same as the suggestion about SEN. An 11 year old won't make that deduction.

What OPs DD did was wrong. But holding her to the behavioural standards of an adult, with or without them being and EdPsych, is ridiculous.

That's understandable, but when it translates to the real world, the results can be different

How is an 11 year old supposed to decipher whether or not a child is struggling or lazy? My dd certainly couldn’t have done that at this age. We had a few chats about her friend with learning difficulties so that she ‘got’ what was going on. She met this girl in year 7, maybe 8 as she is a year younger.

It was the teacher’s job to decipher what was meant by what op’s dd said.

In your shoes op, I’d be writing to the teacher and asking what the end goal was. She knew that the person she’d been paired with wasn’t meeting the criterion and she knew she wanted to win. With the partner that she was given, she was led to believe that wouldn’t be possible as her partner didn’t fulfil the brief. Having highlighted her struggles to the teacher, she was told off for telling tales so rather than hand work in she knew would fail, she ameliorated the work. Yes, that was wrong. However, she felt backed into a corner. Then ask the teacher what your dd should have done differently.

I am not expecting that child to have made that deduction!

I am saying that to the other parents on this thread who are insisting that the OP's child's behaviour was understandable because the other child was, and I quote a "lazy arse".
We don't know that, and there's evidence that she has other challenges.

The only point I am making is that OP's child was not justified in rewriting someone else's work that she judged inferior in order to win. It was dismissive of that party's contribution and she was overly fixed on the outcome - the ends justifying the means, if you like.

However she is only 11 and whilst it was mean to the other child, it's hardly master crime, and understandable and probably a good learning experience.

It's the OP who is an adult, and the other adults on this thread defending what she did, that I have an issue with. Clearly, what OP's daughter did was definitely wrong. I can't believe the adults defending it because in their eyes the other child apparently was simply lazy and obstructive. That's the viewpoint I can't agree with.

I think it is pretty awful that your dd replaced someone else's work, particularly as she didn't tell her that she was going to do it. I understand that the other pupil isn't as clever, struggles to stay focused etc but come on, surely she can understand how shit that would make the other girl feel.

As a teacher, I'm aware that group work with diagonal pairings can be inconsistent.

The teacher would have been more than capable of recognising dd's excellent work alongside the other girl's sun-standard work (which may have actually been good for her). Indeed, I would have rated your dd very highly for teamwork, kindness and being a supportive friend. We are not only looking at work output when we set group work.

As it is, I would have found your dd rude and obnoxious, and her comment about 'I wanted to win' makes her sound awful. She's only young, so there's hope for her yet. Use it as a teaching moment. Instead of backing her - essentially saying it's ok to disparage someone else's efforts - you can explain how it's still possible to show your own best efforts without putting other people down.

I am not expecting that child to have made that deduction

You did when you suggested a sentence she should have said instead of telling her observed truth. You said she should have told the teacher not what she saw, the other child on YouTube, but that the other child was finding the work difficult.

One is the observation OPs DD did make. The second is the deduction you said she should have made instead.

Given that I always thought that point of group work was twofold, both doing the work and being able to work with people effectively, I think your dd did not perform well on the second part. I kind of think logically it is a form of cheating as she removed someone else's work from the joint project to get herself a better mark, possibly to win. Also, in school , at that age and in that situation , I think it's not a nice thing to do, to remove someone else's work and replace with your own ,however wonderful your own is.

A kid and a teacher can simultaneously be in the wrong. It's not an either or situation. So you can back your kid up by saying the teacher handled the situation wrong while also pointing out that their actions/reactions were also wrong ,why and teach them how they should handle it next time.

I assume your dd also told you about the problems she was having with the project, or you asked her about it after they had met up outside school to work on it, what did you advise her?

I Respect your perspectives and analysis, just wanted your view, that by saying the ops dd wanted to win, it makes her sound awful, but how should of her dd phrased her comment better ? Especially a prize was being offered for being the best ?