Guardian is publishing Russian Propaganda

[Swayingpalmtrees]

AIBU to be very disappointed that the Guardian has resorted to publishing Russian propaganda. It was shocking to read, largely inaccurate and wholly from the Russian perspective. I am all for listening to all sides, but there was no effort to understand how Ukraine feels, Ukraine's objective is clearly to win the war and reclaim their nation, and blaming the western leaders for arming Ukraine and the bloodshed caused by the Russians is somewhat misleading, Ukraine have every right to defend themselves.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

What it actually looks like this morning, reading between the lines that NATO are perhaps expecting, although not hoping, that at some point they are going to be involved. I am shocked at the sheer numbers of NATO troops and the build up. At first I thought it was a show of strength, but looking at the aerial footage I am not so sure. Perhaps they are preparing now for Putin to take desperate measures, as it is obvious to all that Russia is now not going to win - when it finally dawns on Putin, when he finally gets the memo, we need to be ready.

@Swayingpalmtrees this is pretty scary. Do you think NATO are going to get directly involved? What do you think Putin will do? Wondering whether I should take the family up to Scotland!!

Wondering whether I should take the family up to Scotland!!

Er, if you're trying to avoid nuclear war then I wouldn't head to Scotland!

Scotland won't save you I am afraid.
I do feel NATO are readying themselves for any eventuality now, and I am glad for that preparation, we can't assume this is going to end well with a neat peace treaty. We need to accept risk is present, but we can't make a giant leap to a nuclear war - after all - everyone loses. Let's see. I am glad NATO are taking our security seriously. This is no time to be complacent.

Darn, I’m from the Highlands, lots of family still there and always thought that would be the safest place!! New Zealand it is then.

Scotland is where the nukes live, will be first target.
There's really nothing you can do so no point worrying about it.

I honestly feel the quicker we can accept the Russian position from their perspective and not ours, the better. Putin feels threatened which is why this war started, he does not accept Nato as a defensive mechanism of protection but of encroachment of the west.

Watching from Moscow over the years since the USSR collapsed we have seen one country after another in the East became democratic (to a point), affluent and free thinking, moving away from the ideals and values of Russia that have been in decline for decades.
Putin wants all of the countries around Russia to be under his control as a shield around the motherland. It sounds basic and very last century (or the one before even) He has become very entrenched in that view. He has always seen us as the enemy even if we were not aware of it at the time, even when the west made efforts to include Russia and to open dialogue and connection, it was always received with suspicion.

Putin is in a position of reactive weakness, with an economy in free fall, an invasion in tatters, the status of Russia having fallen in full global view. We can not underestimate Putin's reaction, and we have to plan for all eventualities. There is no need to panic, but we should quietly accept on some level that we will not be able to control everything that happens in the next month or so - which will be key. There is going to be some fall out, Ukraine are looking stronger by the day. The ending is not defined.

In my opinion it's not about NATO for Putin. He fears having a successful democracy (Ukraine) on his doorstep, because Russians will want that too. He also wants to expand back to having a Soviet Union. NATO is a red herring and an excuse.

Its a good article and correct.
Russian isn't going to be defeated, sanctions won't stop him mass producing shells and rockets, even if he runs out of hi tech smart missiles and if he issues a general mobilisation, he wont run out of soldiers either.

Equally Nato isn't going to intervene and risk a wider conflict, nato/us wont even lift the Black sea blockade, which probably the most risk free thing they could do.

Former US and Nato Generals are saying this war will go on for years, how much of Ukraine will be left and how will Europe integrate 30 plus million traumatised refugees? the UK has taken just 17k.

So ultimately, the only way to end the war is by talking.

Have you read any of this thread?

I think that article has some very valid points but my conclusion from the articles is that NATO has appeased Putin for too long and if I had to choose from full out war between all the NATO countries and Russia and appeasing Putin,.I'd say all out war has a better chance of success, though it is of course incredibly risky, especially if China doesn't stay neutral ( well neutralish) .

You may of course disagree that all out war would be a better long term outcome and you may be right as there are no easy answers but I'd say that there is a good argument that all out war might just defeat Putin.

So no, that article is so far away from propaganda it is laughable to call it that. It is an opinion piece and the fact that we don't seem to be able to tell the difference between that article and real propaganda goes a long way to explaining how we have such polarised opinion nowadays with no room for nuance

@LemonDrizzleSlice Stopped reading when a PP said it wasn't about NATO but about a successful Ukraine, ignoring the fact that Finland is also on Russia's border, is highly successful and then digressed to Nuclear war and travel to Scotland.

I was replying to the article and the OP 's opinion on that its propaganda and not you... is that allowed or are you a MN moderator?

I think you might be right about this

What it actually looks like this morning, reading between the lines that NATO are perhaps expecting, although not hoping, that at some point they are going to be involved. I am shocked at the sheer numbers of NATO troops and the build up. At first I thought it was a show of strength, but looking at the aerial footage I am not so sure. Perhaps they are preparing now for Putin to take desperate measures, as it is obvious to all that Russia is now not going to win - when it finally dawns on Putin, when he finally gets the memo, we need to be ready

Russia doesn't need to win! he can wage war on Ukraine in the south and east indefinitely (or as long as he wants too)
China and India will continue trading with Russia and its a country rich in raw materials.

NATO militarily intervening means a world war with Russia, there has never been war a full on war between two nuclear countries/alliances, so whilst we have to be ready for any possibility, it also has to be remembered that the number of NATO troops in eastern europe is tiny compared to pre 1991 levels.

alexandra I wondered when you might pop up. In fact I am amazed it took you so long. Of course you think talking is better, now you are losing.

An all out war is most definitely the preferred route given the two options. Why? Because if we appease Putin this time (I am thinking of Crimea) he will be back next year to take Moldova, Georgia, Poland and many more, we will be simply delaying the inevitable, and giving Russia time to rebuild its army. Emboldened by his win, Putin will stop at nothing with appeasement. We will end up fighting a far larger war, with potentially enormous casualties if we do not deal with this now.

Clearly, Putin is not a reasonable or honest broker, and any deal he concocts is unlikely to hold anyway. We need to take a breath, and take Putin on now as we are doing, and I imagine that is the conclusion of the decision makers in the West. The mask has slipped from the true face of Russia, and yes people might not like what they see, but we have to accept the facts as they are and deal with it.

It's not propaganda, it is an opinion piece. And it does make a good point. Prolonging the war to to deplete Russia's supplies and bleed the economy dry isn't helping Ukraine. It's like when the US sat back and let the Soviet army rampage across Afghanistan. The USSR eventually ran out of money for the conflict but it destroyed Afghanistan.

You keep saying in shrill tones that that means world war with Russia alexandra

Yes, we know.

We have accepted that there is now a distinct possibility of a war with Russia, anyone can see this is a possibility of course, as Putin does not appear to have any interest whatsoever in resolving this conflict through bilateral talks. His answer is 'the time is not ripe' to world leaders when questioned why he is not involved in the peace talks.

We all know by now that Putin certainly does not want peace talks, he does not want peace full stop. He wants to blow the shit out of Ukraine and take over the country before moving onto Moldova, which is a far smaller country and easy target compared to Ukraine.

At some point the west will need to reconcile its wish to avoid war, with the reality that we may not have the choice if it comes to it. It is not quite inevitable though, if Russia retreats, and Ukraine is restored and there is an agreement around Nato positions with Russia. That is the very best case scenario now that I can see, and I would invite anyone to share their views on possible outcomes.

The big difference is that Finland has never been part of the Soviet Union, and did not recently overthrow a hated government (in 2014...). That is why Putin needs to shut its democracy down.

Ukraine's democracy, I mean. Putin can't afford for his subjects to see Ukrainians enjoying a successful democray.

It's not propaganda, it is an opinion piece.

Ha ha ha. Do you think that propaganda has big red flags and THIS IS PROPAGANDA printed all over it? 😆Of course not. It is disseminated in opinion pieces, tweets, Facebook posts, etc etc. All under the guise of "reasonable opinion".

I wondered when you might pop up. In fact I am amazed it took you so long. Of course you think talking is better, now you are losing

An all out war is most definitely the preferred route given the two options. Why? Because if we appease Putin this time (I am thinking of Crimea) he will be back next year to take Moldova, Georgia, Poland and many more, we will be simply delaying the inevitable, and giving Russia time to rebuild its army. Emboldened by his win, Putin will stop at nothing with appeasement

Firstly, MN isn't just for you & your opinions... secondly, i want nothing more than Russia to lose, Putin to die a horrible death, a severe stroke would be just deserts... and would very much like the US to open up the Black Sea....
Your opening remark is one reason i don't like the NC facility but we've crossed swords before, so no surprises.

BUT none of that is going to happen.

Anyone who prefers all out war is as crazy as Putin... lives on another planet & sounds like one of those Generals from WW1 happy to send others to their deaths.

Russia will issue a general mobilisation rather than withdraw, which means Russia will hold on to much if not all of the territory gained.

This is not 1938/9, war with Russia risks nuclear annihilation, highly unlikely at present, which why we should ignore his threats but should Russia be pushed back out of Donbass and ultimately Crimea, then all bets are off.

Most wars end with talks, its an historical fact.

Most wars end with talks, its an historical fact.

Only at the point that the aggressor has no choice, because they are losing.

No but how much of The Guardian pages are devoted to pro-Ukraine. The Guardian might get a lot wrong imo (womens' rights spring to mind) but they are firmly against the war in Ukraine. They are allowed to publish pieces with slightly different views without it being Russian propaganda. News without dissenting voices becomes an echo chamber. Or perhaps you are fine with UK propaganda?

Or until there is stalemate?

Many experts with far more military experience than you or i, think this is the most likely outcome, a long protracted war of attrition.

Caveat being Putin dying or being overthrown, Russia pulling back, blaming everything on Putin and we ease sanctions.. BAU.

What are the chances of Putin being overthrown? Also, if he dies anytime soon I wonder who they’ll have lined up to take his place?