Guardian is publishing Russian Propaganda

[Swayingpalmtrees]

AIBU to be very disappointed that the Guardian has resorted to publishing Russian propaganda. It was shocking to read, largely inaccurate and wholly from the Russian perspective. I am all for listening to all sides, but there was no effort to understand how Ukraine feels, Ukraine's objective is clearly to win the war and reclaim their nation, and blaming the western leaders for arming Ukraine and the bloodshed caused by the Russians is somewhat misleading, Ukraine have every right to defend themselves.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

Stalemate really means an endless civil war until Russia is driven out/forced out or runs out of money/men. Ukraine can carry on to the end of time, they have nothing to lose unlike Russia, that has limited support for their 'non war'

Russia will issue a general mobilisation rather than withdraw, which means Russia will hold on to much if not all of the territory gained

You are deluded if you think Russia can successfully gain and hold on to any part of Ukraine, we have already seen this fail multiple times in the last two months.
General mobilisation is only possible once the area in question is fully under control and secure, but Russia can not achieve that with a hostile nation that are essentially looking for any way possible to eliminate the invaders. They will be constantly under attack. Russia will not even manage that in smaller areas such as the Donbas. Ukraine is not Russia, it will not capitulate - not now, not ever.

I wonder where you get the idea from that you simply move in and mobilise the area?? Russia to date have not achieved that anywhere in Ukraine so far, and for a 'lightening' invasion that was only supposed to last 48 hours I wouldn't say the odds were in Russia's favour, have you seen the state of their army?

Most wars do end with talks, but we are not witnessing most wars are we? We are dealing with a very unstable despot that is showing no sign of reasoned thinking. Most people of average intelligence have given up on the idea this war will end up like most wars. Russia needs to be beaten back, and it is as simple as that. They need to lose so badly it will take generations to recover, that is the only language Putin understands.

But going back to the original article... how much of Ukraine will remain? after less than 3 months, most of the major eastern cities are flattened, 2/3rd of Ukrainian children have fled, 10m refugees - what will it look like in 3 years time?

Russia has the population, the control of the media, the raw materials to continue this war for years to come and, as you say, Ukraine the will and means to defend, indeed push back... but the aim now has shifted - its go back to the Ukrainian borders post 2014 and prosecute the entire chain of command up to and inc Putin.

Look, i never wanted this war, i ve seen the aftermath of a war and all options pre invasion had to be considered, inc no nato membership.
BUT once he invaded, gloves off all in with our support... so i'm really at a loss to why you said "you want talks now your losing" i wanted the MiGs sent, i wanted the blockade lifted and anti ship missiles sent.. long before Truss got on board.

Ukraine will have to rebuild, Russia will be picking up the tab in compensation for decades to come. That will be end result.

Even a flattened country is better than NO country. In the same way countries recovered after the world wars, this will be no different. How dare Russia inflict this carnage on its neighbour is all I can say. The good news is that most of Ukraine outside the heavily bombed areas are perfectly fine and undamaged including the world heritage sites, so it is not across the board.

Ukraine has also gained an incredible amount of world status and is highly respected now. Once a back water that hardly anyone had ever heard of, it has now been catapulted into global consciousness and they have shown themselves to the most resilient, kind spirited and strong nation. I will be visiting as soon as it is safe (ish), as will millions of others to show our support and help them return to prosperity. Russia will be out in the cold for generations.

I am hopeful for Ukraine, they have much to fight for, and a wonderful country and I wish them every ounce of luck in retaining their beautiful country, and the millions that fled can return and live in safety again. It is not all lost, very far from it.

@Swayingpalmtrees Don't really disagree of any of your last post 👏

How are you both so knowledgeable? This thread is really interesting and also making me feel really uninformed.

Don't trust the information as gospel, in the newspapers, yes it helps give an overview, but with any military conflicts, what's happening at that time, history shows later on their was a lot more different operations ect, e.g. Operation mince meat, for example.

Its opinions not knowledge... no one on here knows what is really going on or what Putins aims are, let alone how the war will end.
As Hawkins said, read decent newspapers and news channels, i find R4 very informative.

There are certain facts that are without question though, so although some points are opinion - others are pure facts such as:

Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation, and are now at war with Ukraine. Russia is and has killed thousands of innocent civilian people.

Mass genocide has now been proved by all reasonable doubt and has been heavily audited by neutral observers and agencies/organisations in order to compile a war crimes case in due course.

Russia's objectives have failed - they were unable to secure and take over the whole of Ukraine as planned. They have reduced their ambitions as a result.

Russia have lost tens of thousands of soldiers. They seem prepared to continue the loss for the foreseeable future.

Most commentators on both sides agree we are now entering the most dangerous stage of the war.

Yep, Putin is thought to use the Victory celebrations to declare war... but on whom? Ukraine or NATO?

And as we've seen in the 'West, nothing like a war to galvanise public opinion on your side.

Putin would be pretty stupid to declare war on NATO. So, I assume it will be the same lies he will trot out 'war against the nazis' or similar.

I think most Russian people will just feel very scared is my best guess. Their economy, banking and life chance have shrunk to almost zero under Putin's leadership.

One might assume there is also going to be a considerable public backlash.

"Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation"

can this be proven for certain or is this conjecture ? Based on newspaper reports vs the files of various intelligence services that may prove otherwise but for e.g. National security, it has to look like their was no provocation ?

obviously that's just asking a question, yes for all intents and purposes it does appear that Russia had no reason for the military action, but as shown e.g. Ww1&2 ect, there is usually a lot more behind the military intervention and operations than is apparent, for example the recent film operation mincemeat as and example.

Hawkins, who pays you to spout Russia- apologetic propaganda? there really can't be any other reason to lurk about random Internet forums, asking faux- naive leading questions and insinuate that you have some secret insider knowledge and contacts.
Nauseating.

can this be proven for certain or is this conjecture ? Based on newspaper reports vs the files of various intelligence services that may prove otherwise but for e.g. National security, it has to look like their was no provocation ?

What provocation could there have been from a smaller, weaker state engaged in no aggressive actions and with zero possibility of joining NATO? Seriously, what are you suggesting as a possiblity - did the Ukrainian government plan to invade Russia? Did it look at Russia in a funny way? Spill Putin's pint? Was it wearing a short skirt and asking for it?

Russia's latest invasion of Ukraine was an unprovoked act of aggression by an authoritarian leader who's been in power and isolated from differences of opinion for so long that he's bought in to his own ludicrous propaganda. As a result, he's brought unspeakable carnage to a country minding its own business and totally and utterly fucked his own country. But if it makes you feel better to think that there are super secret reasons not evident to the naked eye that justify the bombing of air-raid shelters with the word "children" written on the ground outside, the rape of women and children, booby-trapping children's toys with grenades, shooting handcuffed civilians, and torturing people to death for the crime of defending their own country, then you crack on @Hawkins001.

I don’t think it’s propaganda, it’s an opinion. Even says so at the top there, just over the title. We can disagree without finding excuses to claim that the other opinion is just wrong and shouldn’t be allowed to exist.

I would like to say I agree with it too, but regretfully I don’t think Putin is in the mood for talks. No one forced him to invade. I do respect those who work for peace, but sometimes you have to recognise it takes two sides. Sometimes you cannot reason with someone, any more than you can reason with a rapist or a burglar or a murderer.

People have tried. Ukraine gave up their own nuclear weapons fgs. The only “provocation” they gave the Russians, Hawkins, was to assert their right to exist outside of Russian control.

Intriguing perspectives from the recent posters, although if we are ment to be in a democracy are we not ? Then why do we have to have full faith in the media to tell the complete context and issues truthfully ? Why do various intelligence exist if their are no secrets operations ?

*intelligence agencies

Hawkins, your grammatical mistakes are those Russian-speakers would make. Just sayin'.

How does my grammar, invalidate my points ?

English is clearly not your first language. What is?

English, I just never got to grips fully with the rules of grammer, and instead try to write clearly but not always the best of my abilities.

www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/six-top-secret-military-operations-of-the-20th-century.html

Strange response.

Why do you think that saying the claim of Ukrainian provocation is obvious and monstrous bollocks means people think there are no secret operations by intelligence agencies? Of course we know that intelligence agencies conduct secret (or supposedly secret) operations. There are lots of examples: the Russian government's murder of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006; the Russian government's attempted murder of Sergei Skripal in 2018; the Russian government's attempted murder of Alexei Navalny in 2020; the two times they poisoned opposition figure Vladimir Kara-Murza; Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election. And, of course, there are the reports that the reason that the foreign intelligence arm of the FSB got raided by another branch of the Russian security services in March was because its agents had screwed up the operation to bribe Ukrainian governmental and security assets into allowing a Russian takeover - the Ukrainians had reportedly taken the money and then opposed the invasion anyway. Yes, the corruption and incompetence of Russian intelligence agencies shows us very clearly how extensive their secret operations are.

But the fact that intelligence services run intelligence operations (badly, in the case of Russia) has nothing to do with the idiotic claim that Ukraine or the US or anyone else somehow provoked Russia into a criminal war. Still, it's a line of argument I look forward to seeing from the Kremlin, if they can take time out from alienating Israel by blaming Jews for the Holocaust: the wily Ukrainians provoked us into invading them for no obvious reason in order to show the world how unbelievably shit our military strategy, tactics, and logistics are; how poorly we maintain our equipment and train our conscripts; how stupidly we design our tanks; how easily a smaller, weaker state can pick off our generals in the field; how weak our hold over our neighbours in the former Soviet Union is; how fascist our system of government is; how incompetent and frightened the people around the president are; and how paranoid, cruel, vain, and dim-witted Putin is.

Not 100% sure it's a line that's going to do much credit to the great strategic minds in the Kremlin, but god knows they've run through every other justification so maybe it's worth a shot.

How does my grammar, invalidate my points ?

I blame the piss poor education system in Russia. One rather loses interests in the content when the grammar is so bad and then misspelt to compound things!!

Yes, reading your post again, English is definitely your first language 🙄

Lmfao