To ask why having an elective C-Section is so frowned upon?

[Rosesandbutterflys]

I am (hopefully) having an elective C-Section soon. First baby, don't want anymore children after.

I've always had a fear of child birth, which over the past 5 years has been compounded by a lot of people around me having children and the vast majority of these (though I appreciate I'm probably unlucky here) have been pretty traumatic births that have ended in severe tears, forceps and a lot of the time, an emergency section anyway. Granted their experiences have mostly been better on their second birth/ child.

Nothing and I truly mean nothing about natural childbirth/ labour appeals to me. Not the hours of pain, pushing, potential rips/ tears, forcep intervention, epidural (yes I appreciate I'd have one of these for a section), damage of my pelvic floor and the panic and stress of potentially having to be rushed to theatre because it just wasn't going to happen naturally and the baby is in distress or whatever.

Now don't get me wrong, nothing about a c-section appeals to me either, it's absolutely no walk in the park and I'm dreading it, but it has to come out some way and I am a person that likes to plan things and to somewhat be in control/ aware of the plan. I have also had abdominal surgery before (though not as severe as a C-section) and I know recovery is likely to be painful and slower than if I were to have a natural birth. But for me, this is the preferred/ lesser of the 2 evils option.

I have also spent hours pouring over research as to the benefits of a vaginal birth over a c-section and last night came across a NICE/ NHS study/ research that found that actually, for a planned/ elective c-section, the risk to the mother of a c-section compared to a vaginal birth is pretty much the same. It states that the risk of the baby ending up in NICU with a C-section is 13.9% compared to a vaginal birth which is 6.3%, so double the risk, BUT it says the research does not take into account the fact that most c-sections undertaken are for medical reasons and therefore the likelihood of the baby needing NICU attention after it's born is increased anyway.

It then went on to say that the risks of an unplanned, emergency C-Section are a lot higher than a natural birth/ elective/ planned C-Section. So I guess if each woman was guaranteed to have a straightforward, natural birth, then great, but a lot of women do end up needing an emergency c-section so, technically they are more at risk than someone who has chosen an elective.

This now seems like I am bashing natural delivery and I'm not at all I totally admire and respect women that chose that route, I only wish I were that brave.

However, the responses I have had from people my whole pregnancy when I have admitted I am opting for an elective C-section have been ridiculous. Not one person has responded positively, all I've had is 'Oh, really? Are you sure??' and 'Oh, why on earth would you elect to have that?' etc etc. Or just a stony faced, tight smile and 'oh right' making it clear they disapprove but not actually coming out and saying it.

I got told last night that the reason I'm getting these reactions is because a C-section is 'taking the easy way out '😕

If that's the case, why on earth wouldn't you? Why is it that it seems the prerequisite to being a good mother is seemingly having to martyr yourself all the time?

So many of my friends that have had children and also the women in my NCT class who are preparing for their births have all expressed dismay/ distress at having to have any pain relief, they all want it to be as natural as possible and I know my friends that haven't had 'textbook' births still harbour 'guilt' and sadness to this day. Why? If you need gas and air or an epidural, so what? What exactly am I missing? If they ended/end up with forceps or an emergency section, it's not their fault, it's just one of those things. Surely modern medicine has provided these things to make childbirth safer?

Anyway, gone off on a tangent now but if you disapprove of someone having an elective c-section, could you tell me why?

Hi OP, I’m a bit late to the chat but I hope you still get to read my response.

I had my first baby in May 2021. It was a vaginal birth but because the baby was in distress when my waters broke, I was told I had to take an epidural to go on a hormone drip which would push my contractions together. Whilst having my epidural done, the anaesthetist placed it in the wrong place and ended up puncturing my spine. This led to a spinal puncture and a spinal headache which took three procedures over the course of three weeks to fix. I’ve had multiple MRIs, CT scans and referrals to a consultant neurologist at a different hospital.

During labour I also lost 2L of blood and had a 3rd degree tear. DD and I spent one week on the ward where she lost a lot of weight because I was unable to move my neck to breastfeed (due to the spinal headache) and there was a lack of support from the midwives and maternity support workers. I had to have CBT for the trauma as I was so traumatic by the overall experience. I forgot to mention I was also pushing for 4hrs.
It was HELL.

Fast forward to now and I just had my second baby via an elective section last Wednesday. It’s not the best thing when getting the spinal done and during the procedure you do feel a bit of tugging and rummaging when they’re getting the baby out. But oh my God. The experience is SUCH a calming one. The surgeon, nurses and anaesthetist/consultant anaesthetist are so great and so calming. Unfortunately I’m still at the hospital now because my son is in intensive care but I was up and walking the next day as I wanted the catheter out asap. The pain really kicks in once the numbness as worn off so take the painkillers every chance you get, even if you’re not in pain at the exact moment!

I wish I had done my research before because if I had known just how many risks there were with a vaginal birth then I honestly would have asked for a C section. I’ve been consultant led both times so it would have been a simple request for me to make.

I agree with your OP and all you need to do it look at the comments to know women frown on those who have/want a C section. It’s our body so not really sure what the issue is but the fact that some have said it’s ‘opting out’ or ‘taking the easy route’ is so insane to me. Does no one actually care about whether the baby is healthy or not and the mothers mental health after delivery or is it all about ‘I had a natural birth and didn’t even do it with gas and air….’

If I ever have any more children, I’ll be asking for a C section and I couldn’t care less about what anyone else says. @Rosesandbutterflys you’ve done thorough research and you seem like you know this is what you want to do. Ignore all of the comments because you can have a vaginal birth and have a hell on earth type of experience whereas you can have the most positive experience with your little one when having the section. All the best and ignore these so called martyrs!💗

I also believe I would have been let out by Thursday even/Fri morn (had the baby last Wednesday) if DS wasn’t admitted into intensive care.

There have been women on the ward in the same room as me who have had a C section, aimed to walk within some hours and have gone home the next day! They’re super lucky.

I can’t speak about costs etc but I think the reason why consultants try to put you off is because a section requires quite a few senior people (surgeons, consultant anaesthetist for spinal if you get one etc) whereas there’s probably more midwives to assist with a natural birth. At the end of the day it’s your body and they do give you what you ask for even if it seems like you have to beg. Even after my horrible experience, I had five appointments with consultants to simply ‘confirm’ whether I still want an elective section. I found it so crazy. As for the comments saying it shouldn’t be allowed on the NHS or the NHS is ‘stretched enough as it is.’ Is that our fault? Should we put ourselves through uncomfortable positions either due to a previously bad experience, genuine fear or making an educated choice just because the NHS is stretched? Come off it pls

Anyone complaining about the cost of an elective C section, think about the cost of an induction that can take anything up to 3 days & still end up in theatre for an emcs, compare that to one night after an elective C section. I bet there isn't much difference in cost. You do what you have to, what is your choice, best for your & your baby, stuff all the moaners, it isn't them going through it.

I am so sick and tired of the medical profession ignoring, undermining, and women sitting in judgement about other women giving birth…. It’s a painful, difficult and horrible process and nothing can change my mind. I really think women should be campaigning hard against the tears, pain, trauma and generally horrible nature of birth ( if men did it I am bloody certain it wouldn’t be such an awful process) .

I once saw a woman do the oh ‘too posh to push’ sneer at another poor woman. Op it’s your choice from a limited and unpleasant set of choices, and I support everyone who has to give birth and hope they and their child arrive healthy and happy with no long term medical issues….and have the birth they need for their health. I know this is not the reality for many that it should be. Women need to stop sneering at others and for there to be more organisation with women loudly complaining about birthing procedures, options and etiquette. OP I hope it goes as well as possible, you have great aftercare and your child is healthy. Am sorry you have met with judgement and a lack of support among your circle.

I would think it is the exact opposite of an easy way out but I too don't understand the obsession with a 'natural labour' and the guilt women feel when they don't get that. I couldn't give a fuck how the baby gets out as long as they are healthy, which was more or less the birth plan I said to my midwife when she asked what I wanted.

It’s a painful, difficult and horrible process and nothing can change my mind. I really think women should be campaigning hard against the tears, pain, trauma and generally horrible nature of birth

I had 2 that is not my experience at all. Pain yes but bearable, IME broken bones hurt more. But being able to get off the bed afterwards and go home 3 hours later was pricelss specially with my second.

Both of which fall into the ignorance category, of course, and given all the historical discourse around childbirth, the belief that interventions are bad and a lack of interest in women's suffering aren't necessarily two unconnected things. Obv I know you're not talking about your own views here.

I'm afraid It's the start of a long road of people judging your choices as a parent. Breast, bottle, how and when you wean, co sleep or sleep training etc etc etc.

I actually planned a home birth, as for me the fear of stepping foot in a hospital far outweighed any fear of giving birth (not covid related). I also got a lot of funny looks, 'oh ok' and people outright telling me it was the wrong thing to do. If you've done your research and made your decision OP then stand by it. Ultimately it's your experience and one that you will remember for the rest of your life so it needs to be right for you and you alone.

As an aside the sort of sensational language being used here around natural birth is one of the reasons many women are fearful, ('natural birth = maternal and infant death' 🤨 ) and it just doesn't have to be like that, but I realise that's not the point of this thread :)

I had a c section when my child was breech and I was very glad about it. I felt the same as you & I could mentally deal with a planned operation much better than the unexpected things that can happen with a vaginal birth. I opted for a elected c section with my second child too, again went very smoothly and I ws walking around Chester zoo 7 days later. Had a great recovery. I don't have that need to have a natural birth like some women have. I have a lot of respect for these women, especially those who don't want pain relief. But I am just not like that.

Tbf I can understand why people have these views against choosing c-section,

I used to be one of them. I understood that choosing c-section=far more expensive for the NHS. Choosing c-section= far riskier. I don’t blame myself for initially thinking that because it’s the view often perpetuated in the media and is pretty widespread.

I now know that neither of those statements are true but they influenced my views strongly at the time.

It's a fair point, the people who think sections are more expensive and riskier are tapping into older and fairly well established fallacies. This thread is a good example of how pervasive even some of the more obviously ridiculous perspectives can be.

Some people say a natural delivery is more cost effective for the NHS but it really isn’t, there’s barely anything in it especially if it’s a traumatic delivery with spinal, forceps etc.

I had ELCS with my last two DC after traumatic vaginal births. There’s no way the ELCS cost the NHS more than me being rushed into theatre with a retained placenta and then a couple of blood transfusions. I was also in hospital recovering for 3 days, out the next morning after my ELCS.

I have had two c/s, first emergency second elective.
i can see what you mean about ‘control’, but even for an elective the recovery is at least 3 weeks to feel back to normal (they say 6 weeks to drive, think I was driving after 5). It could be within 48 hours with a vaginal birth.
Also it’s harder to get milk supply stabilised if you want to breastfeed - I had issues both times (ended up formula feeding the 2nd). i think baby going through the birth canal stimulates milk production.
Even looking back I would still
opt for vaginal even though my attempt ended up w an emergency- it’s pretty much lack of the drawer imho depending on a lot of factors regarding the position of baby, shape of pelvis etc.
Good luck anyway, I hope all goes well.

@vivainsomnia its not a selfish choice at all. The NHS is set up to treat everyone, regardless of their personal choices. We don’t refuse to treat rugby players’ broken bones because they are ‘selfish’ for playing a dangerous sport. We don’t refuse to treat smokers or alcoholics or drug addicts because of some sort of misplaced value judgements on their lives. Don’t try and make this poor woman feel bad for exercising her rights - rights that have been put in place by medical experts and policy makers with far more information and knowledge than you. Shame on you.

Every women should have the right to choose their own birth method. Having had both a ‘natural’ birth and an EMCS, I would choose an ELCS next time (there won’t be a next time, largely because of the trauma of my ‘natural’ birth).

OP - the only people who should feel shame are those who are judging your choice. If men gave birth this wouldn’t even be a debate.

@Squillerman Squillerman · 28/04/2022 08:50
Some people say a natural delivery is more cost effective for the NHS but it really isn’t, there’s barely anything in it especially if it’s a traumatic delivery with spinal, forceps etc.

I had ELCS with my last two DC after traumatic vaginal births. There’s no way the ELCS cost the NHS more than me being rushed into theatre with a retained placenta and then a couple of blood transfusions. I was also in hospital recovering for 3 days, out the next morning after my ELCS.

If you have complications, during a natural or c-section birth, it’s going to cost more. If you have a medical need then a c-section is obviously right. However the majority of births could be successful with just a clean room, basic equipment and the occasional presence of a midwife. Not that that extreme should be forced upon people but it’s worth remembering that it exists as an option for most births.

The NHS paying for lifestyle surgery when it is struggling to find vital surgery is morally wrong. Individuals with no health concerns should pay for an elective c-section themselves or take all the drugs on offer from the NHS and not feel any pain or even be particularly aware of their vaginal delivery.

Where is this NHS that offers all women enough drugs to not feel any pain during their vaginal delivery, out of interest? I must've delivered my vaginally birthed offspring in a different one.

@Franklyfrost absolute bullshit. I had no medical concerns prior to birth at all, but my baby got stuck and I ended up with an EMCS. For my second I tried again for a natural birth - again, no complications. But again the baby was stuck. This time I stayed the course with my ‘natural’ birth and ended up with a full team of emergency medics ripping me open. Turns out I’m one of the women who would have died in childbirth had I not lived in one of the most developed countries in the world. Since then I’ve had endless tests and procedures to try and fix me up. My natural birth has definitely cost the NHS a packet - and that’s not even counting the many, many appointments and tests I had before my second birth to see if I should go VBAC or ELCS.

Your ignorance is appalling. The NHS is on its knees because of chronic underfunding and piss poor management, not women choosing CS.

@SweetPetrichor

misogony is alive and well in you isn’t it? Loads of bollocks you’ve said

I had an elective c-section and it was the best option for me. I was extremely anxious about it, but they gave me morphine and diazepam into my arm and I felt fine, literally the calmest I’ve ever felt, which is crazy as they were cutting me open!

They put him to my breast straight away and I fed him myself for just over a year in the end, so having a c section didn’t affect that at all.

I was in pain after for about 10 days, but I didn’t need to take all the painkillers they gave me to take home.
The worst part was the trapped wind and when they removed the catheter. But overall it wasn’t a bad experience at all.
He was a big baby, over 9lbs. So I’m pretty sure I’d have ended up with some sort of intervention like forceps or even an emergency c-section if I’d had him naturally.

Here's a novel idea: why doesn't the NHS impartially state the pros/advantages and cons/risks of vaginal birth and caesarean birth and then allow women to make an informed choice for themselves? We're not infants. We don't need a pat on the head and a lollypop for being brave and doing it right. It's our bodies so it should be our choice and if a woman sees a greater benefit vs risk analysis in caesarean birth over vaginal birth (and visa versa) then she should absolutely be able to make that choice for herself.

Agree also that problems with the NHS are down to poor funding and management not women requesting caesareans - only around 3% of the NHS budget is spent on maternity services, a tiny amount in overall spending. The cost differences between vaginal births and caesarean births are minimal, particularly when looking at long term postnatal issues, the difference is that caesarean births have that spending up front and vaginal births have it over a longer period. Breastfeeding can be impacted by caesarean birth but that's more to do with lack of support than lack of post-birth oxytocin, there will always be women who can't breastfeed or who don't want to breastfeed and that's their choice, they shouldn't be pressured either way, but for those who do want to attempt it post-caesarean then proper support and advice on establishing it can help but again this is lacking due to lack of funding (and that's also true for women who have had vaginal births).

Maybe instead of getting twisted up about caesareans bleeding the NHS coffers dry, you should instead get angry about the pittance spent on maternity care that means outcomes are frequently compromised, partners have to stay overnight in what should be a female patient only space to provide care that should be carried out by staff, and the fetishisation of natural birth that has actively contributed to maternal and neonatal deaths?

Those deaths, of course, often giving rise to compensation payments as well. This too is a cost that has to be factored into maternity budgets.

Honestly, the failure of the money money money brigade to actually cost this properly is really stark. If you want to argue that the NHS can't afford a particular option, do so on the basis of what it actually costs. It's incredibly telling how many people can't look beyond straightforward vaginal birth is cheaper for the NHS than anything else at the delivery stage.

It's "frowned upon" because it is surgery and with any surgery there comes increased costs to the NHS but more importantly, risk to mum & baby.

However, saying that c sections are often necessary. The decision whether or not to have one should be a clinical decision which includes effects on mental health.

Our bodies are not designed to give birth naturally in many cases. If we were to truly give birth naturally with NO medical intervention there would be a very high level of deaths, mother and baby. To put it simply, we have evolved to max capacity where the child's head is so large it puts huge strain on the mother to give birth and in some cases it is simply not possible. And it is undoubtedly a fact that many babies who die in childbirth would have survived in an elective c section. You can never know what is best or 'right' until you are in the thick of it, but I am a strong believer of following your instincts and what you feel to be right for you.

It's "frowned upon" because it is surgery and with any surgery there comes increased costs to the NHS but more importantly, risk to mum & baby

This just isn't true.

If baffles me that in this day and age women can be so unsupportive and rude to other women, does it cost you personally a penny if Jane down the street has an elective section? And if the answer it is “YeS I pAy TaXeS”

don’t we all? And I’m sure I’ve inadvertently paid for something for you in the same way, unless you’ve never been to the doctors, had an operation, called the police the list goes on. Put a sock in it seriously.

it’s honestly just jealousy that they get the option to have a calm and pain free birth while you had to go through labour, if it isn’t that then why not just live and let live.