to think that some people just don't get poverty?

[Ohsoworried]

I've seen a few posts recently where people earning a fair bit of money (think around 100k a year) are complaining that they're struggling with money, don't have enough etc. I DO understand that it is all relative but equally, for people like me on a low low wage, in insecure housing, wondering how I'm going to pay rent, having to stop paying in to my pension for the extra £30 a month etc it does make me cringe a little. Things are a little better for me at the moment but it has been hard and my secondment is up soon so back down to low pay. When I left my abusive ex I was living in poverty. And when I mean poverty I mean in a refuge, no job because I had to relocate, no money for a deposit to rent etc. It's the choice between being able to downsize your house, not go on holiday for a couple of years, make sacrifices but still live comfortably etc, compared with not knowing if you'll be able to afford your bills. Of course I'm generalising and I'm sure there are people out there who are genuinely on high wages but have high mortgage payments etc who are struggling. I do sympathise. But I don't always think this is the case...

Many people who work nmw jobs do that

Next?

Migrants do well because they pool their resources Majority of migrants do well for various reasons, I Will be honest here , they do work harder than most. Their expenditure is less then most , they manage money better .
they do value education and that’s why many children from ethnic backgrounds generally do better later in life .

I find it interesting to look at my parents and grandparents in that period. Both of my gradfathers were in the navy in what would have been working class jobs then, but the same jobs now would be middle class tech jobs. One of my grandfathers later became a news reporter which was still more working class when he started but by the time he finished was dominated by university graduates.

My mum and dad who started in work in the 70s show a similar change. My mum was a nurse which has been closer to a wc occupation (not always, but often) but when she finished, again, it was a university qualification and very mc. My dad was a merchant sailor and it became a much more well paid job with good benefits over time, though in his company and I suspect many others it's not nearly such a good job now.

So I think lots of social mobility happened in that period due to people accessing education, but also due to some of the jobs themselves changing, so they had access to better pay, pensions, people could get into the property market.

But it's difficult to see how that could go on for all jobs to that same degree, or how it could be possible that every generation's kids move to a more middle class kind of work. You'd then have to import workers for the low end jobs it's not like they cease to exist.

To be blunt, yes. The example with the water from the well was personal, by the way. I can say exactly the same as in your OP, people in the UK who face eviction don't even know how lucky they are, on the global scale. They just don't get it.

This is why "relative" poverty is such a weird concept. Relative to what? The people around you and your frame of reference presumably. Yet that is exactly what is being criticised on this thread: that better off people in the UK do not understand the reality of worse off people in the UK because of their frame of reference.

Yet as you pointed out, the fury at somebody stating that their frame of reference about what poverty means - that in most countries it is far more extreme - is people in the UK doing exactly the same, denying the reality of most of the world population.

There is some cognitive dissonance here for sure.

I agree that some people just don't understand poverty. Lots of people with a fairly decent household income will be struggling to balance the household budget at the moment and will complain about the cost of living but that doesn't make them poor. For example we're consistently overdrawn at the end of the month, but I recognise we have still have lots of choices in terms of what we could shave off our budget and still live comfortably. I know that there are lots of people who are facing totally impossible financial decisions and are having to go without lifes essentials and as a result I count myself very lucky.

I did that when I was in a minimum wage temporary job. A series of them in fact.

In my area in London, a house that was 700k 5 years ago actually sold for a million over lockdown. Not doubling but still a large increase. It was a 2 up 2 down with loft conversion. The houses have less to do with income, they are funded by inheritance as well.

London has lower property growth rates than the rest of the country in the last 5 years so I am not surprised to hear some regions (undervalued for years) doubling.

The best place to start if you want to make things better for "Everyone" is to create a fair and equal society where there are no huge divisions between rich and poor because there is economic equality and fair distribution.

I agree, but no chance of that in the UK anytime soon when people vote for Brexit and the Eton crew, it was obvious this would make everyone poorer and the income inequalities more extreme.

If you want to live in a more egalitarian society move to Scandinavia. Except now you probably can't: thanks Brexiteers.

Both my grandfather's were labourers

Both my grandmothers were "housewives" (mother of 5 and mother of 14 respectively)

My parents left school at 14 and 15 respectively

Dad - apprenticeship
Mum - into service in a drs house

It didn't feel like social mobility was a possibility tbh

But they all worked incredibly hard in jobs that shortened their lives

The delayed gratification point is interesting because spending habits between each STRATA of society are different.
This has been proven on this thread, 'Now I have money I've bought this that, and the other'.
Or what do you mean, 'I'm not allowed to have fun', 'heaven forbid I'm allowed a (Insert list of items or pleasure here).

My mum's side of the family always used to snide at my mum and dad, oh you have this that, and the other. However neither of them drunk or smoked or gambled, they were just frugal. They're still frugal now even though they have a great income.

I'm nearly sure a large portion of society could be helped by looking at choices and behavior. Then the outliers are left to tackle, and they do need support.

I do think that the focus on not having a holiday is maybe not really indicative of what happens when wealthier mc or even upper mc people are facing financial issues. Yes, some people complain like it is the end of the world.

But what is more serious, even for a family like that, is having fixed expenses that they can't get out from under, and suddenly not being able to meet them. Sure you might be able to watch you debt skyrocket for a bit, but maxing out your credit is not an endless possibility. It stops at a certain point. This is why you ended up with all those abandoned, unsellable homes in the early two thousands.

People make fun of people with horses crying poverty but I have a friends with a riding school who came very close during covid to having to send a lot of her school horses to slaughter. She was not eligible for relief for them, and they just wouldn't stop eating despite no longer earning an income. She was lucky to get a family loan but if she hadn't had that option, her business would likely have gone under in the end.

I remember having my baby in 1997-I fell pregnant accidentally and my family told me I had no choice but to keep ‘it’ or I’d go to hell-they don’t believe in abortion-turns out they don’t believe in buying nappies either

i had sweet fuck all-the clothes on my back and not much more

i was in an abusive relationship,my mother is a narc and my father enables her (always has done)

I was (and still am) so grateful to the council who gave me a council house and the benefits I got to live on

i got £80 a week to support us-that didn’t go far even then but it was £80 I didn’t work for-plus I got my rent paid-I will always be grateful for that

my ex would think nothing of stealing the odd tenner,nobody would help me get him out as it’s ‘only a few quid’ and ‘doesn’t matter if you don’t want him anymore-your stuck with him’ (thankfully times have changed,but back then the police turned a blind eye to the bruises and control)

he finally left us,leaving me £8k in debt with loan sharks,has never paid a penny for his dd and my parents where worse than useless-If I borrowed 50p,they’d demand a tenner back

i used to go for days without eating as I couldn’t afford to-I never had the heating on and I’d chose the most important clothes to hand wash in the sink as I couldn’t afford a washer (I didn’t know food banks existed)

I remember buying a packet of nappies in a charity shop-the manager took pity on me as I was 10p short and she let me have them for the money I had-I think someone had bought them,taken two out and their child had stopped using them

my parents used to openly gloat that they’d had a tasty expensive takeaway,had bought lovely new clothes or where going on a posh holiday (again) while knowing I wasn’t eating,lived in the same clothes for years and a holiday was past my wildest dreams-they used to openly laugh at me for being poor,and they encouraged my family to do the same-I took being mocked for years (I’m now nc and can’t explain why I didn’t do that sooner-it was like being in a cult I guess)

fast forward-my ex went to prison for dealing drugs,which meant he didn’t have to pay anything (csa are that bad,I’ve never had a penny in 25 years) but tax credits became a thing-finally I could afford to work part time

slowly and I mean slowly I pulled myself up and out of this shit-now we own our own home,have enough food in the cupboards/freezer,I still buy second hand clothes (because I can afford to buy clothes at all-I can now afford new) and I can afford to put the heating on if it’s needed

gasp-I can even afford to go for a coffee sometimes

but those years will never leave me-I’m stronger for them

I’d say you have to live through it to understand and have some empathy but FIL’s partner grew up in poverty and now she’s a total snob. She was very poor until her mid 30s when she finally went to uni as a single parent and now she runs her own successful business so she’s incredibly wealthy. She has the typical Tory stance of ‘if I climbed out of the gutter, anyone can’ and she has no sympathy at all for people struggling financially. She thinks everyone is in that situation because they’re lazy.

So even people who should understand just don’t. It’s sheer ignorance and bigotry.

I’d say you have to live through it to understand and have some empathy but FIL’s partner grew up in poverty and now she’s a total snob. She was very poor until her mid 30s when she finally went to uni as a single parent and now she runs her own successful business so she’s incredibly wealthy. She has the typical Tory stance of ‘if I climbed out of the gutter, anyone can’ and she has no sympathy at all for people struggling financially. She thinks everyone is in that situation because they’re lazy.

So even people who should understand just don’t. It’s sheer ignorance and bigotry.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 - I worked hard at school (had to hide it and got bullied got it), got good grades, worked hard at university and work to get better jobs. I define hard work as applying myself to something for long hours. I wouldn’t be in my current job if I hadn’t worked hard earlier in life.

one of my sisters messed around at school and has done a fairly low level office job (strictly 9-5 unlike any of my jobs) for 20 years. She often complains that I earn more than her as if I woke up one day and it had all magically happened. I didn’t

I’d say you have to live through it to understand and have some empathy but FIL’s partner grew up in poverty and now she’s a total snob. She was very poor until her mid 30s when she finally went to uni as a single parent and now she runs her own successful business so she’s incredibly wealthy. She has the typical Tory stance of ‘if I climbed out of the gutter, anyone can’ and she has no sympathy at all for people struggling financially. She thinks everyone is in that situation because they’re lazy.

So even people who should understand just don’t. It’s sheer ignorance and bigotry.

I have endured years of true poverty, not any more, thank fuck, as I eventually married someone with a good job. We're not wealthy, or even comfortably well off, as after the bills etc, we have very little left. So sometimes we're skint, but skint is not poor by any stretch of the imagination. We can pay all of our bills and run a car and buy decent food or clothes when we need them. We can afford to feed our two dogs and have a takeaway occasionally, and a week's break in the uk.

Poverty is grim, no other word for it. My equally poor friend bought nappies individually for 10p if she ran out. A quid was a lot! I lived in a crappy flat. I would buy reduced food items daily rather than do a shop, I just didn't have the money (benefits seem to be more generous now). My gas and electric frequently ran out, I rented my telly. I owed Shopacheck money (51% interest!), used catalogues for Christmas, then spent the next year paying it back, making me even poorer. I never went anywhere, rarely bought anything that wasn't 100% essential, or sometimes couldn't buy even the essentials. I could go on and on about how utterly bleak and miserable it was. I had no help, apart from a family member giving me the odd tenner here and there.

About twice a year I would buy a carton of egg fried rice from the local chinese restaurant, that was my 'treat'. Sounds utterly pathetic, but it's true!

I don't think you can understand poverty properly unless you've lived it, you can empathise and imagine it, but I doubt someone who hasn't lived it can truly get it. My DH definitely doesn't, he thinks we're hard up, he really has no idea.

This. They do not give a stuff about poor people, or people with disabilities.

Many people who work nmw jobs do that
And people working 40h minimum wage with help with housing have no reason to be in poverty, that is real poverty.

The reality too is that there are no reason if you 'work hard' that you shouldn't, at some stage get a better paid job.

I too worked mnw for some time. I wasn't in poverty but I wanted more. Its not that I work harder, but I started to apply for other jobs, did research to better my CV, ensure to put the time to write letters specific to the job, practice interviews etc.... Its all those little extras that accumulate.

It's true some people can't understand true poverty. That doesn't mean those people don't have empathy for others who are struggling.
Being deaf, sometimes I'm cheesed off at hearing people. They're not going to understand.

Government policy is the cause of inequality and poverty.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 I think spending habits and frugality are a very individual thing. It’s influenced by experience but that’s not the only factor.

One of my friends grew up with a similar background to me but now is comfortable. She has a totally different attitude to money than me. She loves to splash the cash whereas I’m the opposite. I think even if you have experienced poverty that can have a opposite affect on different people.

Single parents, disabled people and carers might struggle a tad…?

Its all good talking equality but the reality is that people will always do what's best for them as long as they can get a decent life.

I chose to work FT when my kids were small and I became a single mum. I didn't do it because I enjoyed it at all. Like most mums, I wanted to spend more time with my kids, be less knackered so it was better quality time, have more time for myself to recover, have a cleaner house etc... I did it because I wanted to have more money if not immediately, in the not too far away future.

If I'd been told that I could only work 16h and still security of housing, enough to pay all my bills, enjoy a decent car, able to afford some nice holidays, live in a good neighborhood so my kids could go to a good school, pay for tutoring, all the activities they wanted to do, experiences during the weekends, nice presents for birthdays and Xmas, then I wouldn't have hesitated and would have taken the 16h for as long as I could.

There has to be some rewards in working FT and doing all the extras to go up the ladder. Its not for everyone and that's fine, but there's got to be something to gain that is enough of an incentive.

Single parent. Disabled. Disabled kids too. Housing help didn't cover all my rent and I got no maintenance.

I also had to start from NOTHING so I didn't have even a chair to sit on or a bed to sleep in.

Single parents, disabled people and carers might struggle a tad…?
I was a single parent for many years. I met quite a few and many worked FT with no help at all. Its doable.

There are many benefits for disabled people if they claim all they are entitled to and rightly so.

Carers who give up a good income to care ft do indeed get a hard deal. I would change that.