to think that some people just don't get poverty?

[Ohsoworried]

I've seen a few posts recently where people earning a fair bit of money (think around 100k a year) are complaining that they're struggling with money, don't have enough etc. I DO understand that it is all relative but equally, for people like me on a low low wage, in insecure housing, wondering how I'm going to pay rent, having to stop paying in to my pension for the extra £30 a month etc it does make me cringe a little. Things are a little better for me at the moment but it has been hard and my secondment is up soon so back down to low pay. When I left my abusive ex I was living in poverty. And when I mean poverty I mean in a refuge, no job because I had to relocate, no money for a deposit to rent etc. It's the choice between being able to downsize your house, not go on holiday for a couple of years, make sacrifices but still live comfortably etc, compared with not knowing if you'll be able to afford your bills. Of course I'm generalising and I'm sure there are people out there who are genuinely on high wages but have high mortgage payments etc who are struggling. I do sympathise. But I don't always think this is the case...

Your last paragraph is spot on imo and what I've been trying to say.
Moving up is, in theory, available to anyone but it can't be available to everyone or the whole thing collapses.
And as I said in a pp we're starting to see the results of this train of thought in some industries that rely on low waged people who are treated badly - and that then goes on to affect society as a whole.

Exactly. But people don't want to hear how reliant we all are on there being a class of people available to do essential, lower paid work. Nobody's social mobility is possible without other people's lack of it, in the societal model we have.

I think the argument is how to level up, do people want the government to tax the mid and upper echelons to give to those in the lower levels. Is it a social good or is it a burden?
The difference between wider communitarianism and individuals and families.
Most of the problems stem from the destruction of the family. I remember my ex-wife complaining how hard her life was post-divorce, juggling children a full-time post, finances etc.
My answer was, that you need to meet someone and pool your resources. I honestly believe some people just cannot grasp that being on min wage in a job with no progression as a single person or a single parent is going to be a great choice financially.

My own parents, my dad worked all hrs, I dunno, where this fantasy has come from, that part-time or an average week, is enough, it's never been that way. Ever.

I remember driving somewhere and listening to Radio 4 as I went along and they were discussing social mobility. This was about 6 years ago but the statistics really stuck in my head because the years mentioned were my mother's birth year and mine. Basically they were saying that someone born in my year (1970) was less socially mobile than someone who had been born in my mother's birth year (1950) and how the further we have moved on in time, that social mobility has practically all but disappeared.

My dad was still working full time when he dropped dead at 67

My mum had to retire through ill health at 60 (good job she could tbh I know many women in similar circumstances who have to work until 67 now)

My first job after 6th form in the middle of a recession in 91 was at a care home. I worked ft for £2.50 an hour. Locals called the job I did "shit shovelling".

My ft working life prior to dc was before nmw.

After dc and after nmw came in I could earn more working pt than I had ft.

There were sure start centres, plenty of walk in centres, you could get medical help when needed, universal child benefit...

Since 2010 all the above ended. No more libraries, no sure start centres, there are now about 5000 foodbanks in the uk as opposed to 400 in 2010.

But people don't want to hear it.

£100k now has less buying power than it did 10 or even 5 years ago.

so I really don’t resent anyone saying they are struggling when just a few years ago said income was suffice.

yes there are bad choices on both ends of the spectrum.
it’s all quite complex.
like saying there is no poverty in the Uk because we have social housing, unlike in other countries were people live in makeshift houses .

@Hrpuffnstuff1

My own parents, my dad worked all hrs, I dunno, where this fantasy has come from, that part-time or an average week, is enough, it's never been that way. Ever.

might depend on geography but I remember when I was young that a traditional couple with a breadwinner doing a routine working class job like working in Tescos on the shop floor earned enough to pay a mortgage and live a decent life with a SAHP looking after the children. I wonder how many single earning shop-floor Tescos workers could afford to buy a house now?

I totally agree. There is far more to it than income alone.

You don't get to lecture people on the poverty line if you earn 6 figures.

End of.

My quote was in response to someone saying hard work has nothing to do with wealth abs it’s solely to do with luck and connections. Not true imo or ime. There are a combination of da abs hard work is definitely one.

it definitely wasn’t luck that got to me where I am. There was definitely an element of hard work. I find it very strange @Believeitornot that you were able to get out of poverty without working hard at all. Sounds pretty unlikely to me. How did u manage that? Lottery win?

most of the people I know in my profession are from wealthy backgrounds. But I also have quite a few friends who started off in the same place as me and are now pretty wealthy. They have all worked hard (but of course had some measure of luck or being in the right place at right time).

Not everyone will be able or will want to do a highly paid job. There’s nothing wrong with that. I have many in my family who are carers, shop workers etc.

The main difference is generational among the people I know - you can’t get on the housing ladder in the south east regardless of your salary (for 99.9% anyway) without family help.

The housing market is insane and has been artificially propped up by governments since 2010.

There is a 2 bed cottage near me (not a great location tbh) last bought 5 years ago. They are now asking DOUBLE what they paid. Why? How?

I see the average price for a house in the UK is now £360k

So deposit of £80k at least?

Also @ChiswickFlo just because I recognize that hard work is a factor in getting yourself out of poverty doesn’t mean I think there is a “level playing field”. I absolutely recognize that I started way behind others and that it’s easier to succeed and to acquire wealth with the right start. But I achieved a lot through my own hard work as have many others.

That doesn’t mean that working hard is always enough. But it’s definitely a factor ime.

Not in my lived experience

I'm sorry even those working in Tescos back in the day were comparatively poor and they weren't living in mansions. My own aunt was a health care assistant, her hubby was a ground worker. They went to the social club and lived in a council house which they bought. They had bangers for transport. It's just how it was.
Migrants do well because they pool their resources, but they also have ambition, the days of brass bands and hey up lad have long gone. People need to look further than Tescos or Amazon 30 plus hrs a week and have some ambition.

I'll use my parents again, we lived thru the '70s and '80s but he was always at work, my mum cleaned to help, we had meat twice a week, and toys were sparse. We just played out, groups of kids all in the same area living similar lifestyles. We used to be given half an apple because the food has to last.

One of the issues is people look at others and assume based on very, very limited knowledge and experience. The problem with communities is, that if the level of experience and vision is limited then life choices will be small. This is why some sections of society end up stuck in strata, life, and society move on.
One thing that wealth does bring is exposure, I am not so sure if this is my problem or not?

Geberally, Migrants also value education and often work in family owned businesses and worship/socialise at the same places

The UK is a secular society now and vast swathes of UK born people place no value on education

🤷‍♀️

@desiringonlychild2022, I don't adhere to the definition these organisations use to define poverty. Using the criteria to define relative poverty, I would have fallen into the category of it when I was a single mum. Yes it was tough at times, but no where near what I consider real poverty.

In any case, I did say clearly it wasn't all a case of bad choices!

I don't have much empathy for the rich, sorry. But I take your point

"We should focus on persuading as many people as possible on supporting things that can be done to make things better for more people, rather than "othering" people"

I agree, please tell that to BoJo and Mogg! and the rest of their ilk who couldn't give a shiny shit about making things better for people less fortunate than themselves.

The best place to start if you want to make things better for "Everyone" is to create a fair and equal society where there are no huge divisions between rich and poor because there is economic equality and fair distribution.

This is the problem with political solutions that mainly focus on social mobility and things like getting lots of people into university. There will still be people working as barristas, or labourers, or cleaners, or childcare workers.

Define hard work.

True poverty is the hideous, never ending daily grind of knowing there isn’t enough money and knowing that nothing will change. That there is no way to pull yourself up or out of it. Everyday feels like wading through treacle in fog
Totally agree with that.

Also totally agree that we will always need people doing lower paid jobs everywhere and those people deserve to enjoy a pleasant life.

My issue is those who opt to only work PT because it's easier, nicer, less stressful etc...but then complain they are struggling and those who do fine, working FT, are lucky.

Yes childcare is expensive. That's why you only have children you can afford and go back to work as soon as possible working as many hours as reasonably possible, not comfortably.

It can be hard to fathom if you haven’t lived it. I find it less infuriating than poverty porn, but it’s still annoying, because there’s no way to show people how bleak things can look when you have NO options. Even people who are trying can’t understand what that’s like, because, by definition they have options.

I do also have some sympathy for anyone with problems though, even if they are not being able to go skiing this year, or needing to can be the children’s horse riding lessons. In some ways, I am privileged, and in some I am very much not. Constantly trying to check my privilege, and remember which bits of my weird circumstances I should check with whom is exhausting and leaves me pretty unable to be freely myself with anyone, especially when I could use some support. That’s not their fault, but it isn’t mine either. To genuinely discuss my circumstances with friends would be unfair and insensitive and have no wish to be either, so I don’t. When things are going well, that’s ok. When they are going badly, it’s hard.

However, I do still do it. And I think others should make the effort to as well.

@ChiswickFlo when inflation is 8%/going to be double digit, being able to fix a mortgage for 5 years to pay off debt for the roof over your head at 2% isn't so dreadful. whoever buys that is probably paying an inflated price, but maybe they have savings that they don't want to put in a bank account/ would pay more to rent privately and need a roof over their heads.

Define hard work
Commitment, giving the absolute maximum, delayed gratification, putting work ahead of pleasure.

I get that
But
In 5 years no upgrades, no improvements...
It's not on a great street either
It won't sell, obviously, but I'm just baffled as to how they thought it might?