That her words about the UK really depressed me?

[NaturalScone]

Talking to a Swedish colleague this afternoon, not had much of a chance to in the past and we ended up discussing the news.
She mentioned how peculiar our politics were, how we have such a massive wealth divide (as we all know) with little encouragement for people from all walks of life and backgrounds to have equal opportunities. By this she meant how Uni education is funded over there so nobody is in debt, which means many more young people are able to chase professional careers, without massive debt.
Also, the work ethic, how people in Northern Europe are encouraged to prioritise health and wellbeing as well as work, and how well housing, health, etc work over there.

I stupidly mentioned Boris J and she said he would likely already be sacked or various offences. I also didn't know that many European monarchs had to either self fund (?) or had most of their palaces belonging to the public.

Are we going backwards here? It left me feeling pretty depressed. I see people on here all the time saying we are so lucky here, but I think the bar is set really low compared to much of Europe. And now we are less connected to Europe, many people here only judge our standards by the US, as if the EU is somehow 'foreign'.
It all sounds a bit scary if I think about it, we do seem so easily led by a one-party representational media/press (right). And whilst I am not generally partisan, I do feel weirdly uncomfortable. She even said the tories were set to abolish channel 4 and soon the BBC because they were too neutral. I find that fairly terrifying and wonder where we re headed. I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.

I usually look for the positives in what we've got, because it feels better than admitting things are that bad, but now I just don't know. And not much I can do about it either!
Something does feel harsher and more divided nowadays, and politicians are able to do anything without fear of reprisal. The UK press is incredibly dire! Do other people see this?

*and they should be paying it on ALL their income.

It’s not a separate point. It is THE point. Starting a fire in your own home and then complaining that you had no choice but to leave is what happened here.

No it's not, the gov chose lockdown therefore the only choices was support or no support in that context.

Problem is no government is brave enough to say this because…. Shock horror…

… everyone will vote for a government where SOMEONE ELSE has to foot the bill for the extra taxes.

And we wonder why nothing changes.

you can go on & on about whether we should have locked down or not but the fact is we did so in that context I think support was necessary.

Dual Swedish/UK citizen currently in SE.
For anyone with a modest income the tax is far higher in SE. No one seems to have mentioned the personal allowance. In the UK you will be paying zero up to about 12k whereas in SE the deductions are minor so many pensioners and people on benefits will lose almost 30% with a similar income.
They also pay VAT at 25%, with a reduced 12% on food.

And as for privacy I can easily search your age, marital status, who you live with, what car is registered to you, what pets are registered to you and for a small fee your tax return.

And then there is the use of digital ID everywhere …

Very good points @sodermalm … yes personal allowance makes a big difference overall. I personally agree with it, as it’s set broadly at or around the minimum income standard but that’s another argument

There are quite a few posters here asking why so many Europeans live in the UK so as I’m one of them, let me try to answer that!

Firstly, there used to be lots of exchange programmes and pre Brexit there was a steady flow of continental Europeans coming to the UK for a while to improve their language skills. Everyone learns English at school so doing a school or university year in an English speaking country is a no brainer. Of the people I still know from my Erasmus university exchange programme, a good handful ended up either staying in the UK, or coming back to the UK after they’d completed their degree in their home country. It was either for career opportunities or because they’d met someone and fallen in love.

Twenty years ago the UK was also a very different place. It felt a lot more open, better connected to the rest of the world outside Europe than other EU countries, it seemed to offer exciting possibilities. London in particular of course. For lots of people from the continent, a stint in the UK was a smart career move.

And then they ended up marrying a Brit or another expat, carving out good job roles for themselves, having children, buying a house… Putting up with things like inflated property prices and the NHS, which was always crap.

It’s not a one way thing either. I know lots of Brits who have settled in my home country for various reasons - often also career related or for love. Brexit may stop people from moving countries in that way now but it used to be quite normal to make a different country your home. And once you’re settled and have a family, you can’t just leave. Although some families have, and many are thinking about it now.

I’ve wondered many times whether I should move back to the continent, but DH is British and doesn’t speak other languages. The kids are British. They have their school, their clubs, their friends. It would take a huge amount of energy to pack up our lives here and start again somewhere else, and in many ways it could cause more unhappiness than we feel now. So we’re kind of stuck. And of course there are plenty of things we love here, too.

So to the posters saying ‘why don’t you just go home’: it’s not that simple.

And it’s true that things aren’t all rosy elsewhere, either. My home country has also changed a lot over the past 20 years.

I do worry about where the UK is headed. It’s not the place I came to live in many years ago and I probably wouldn’t move here now. I’m amazed at how many people I know can’t see all the things that are going wrong, or perhaps they choose not to see them. I just hope it’s only a phase, we will get a new government eventually…

@SonicWomb agreed

I do however think we need to redefine what “rich” means.

definitely, my neighbour thinks her doctor neighbour is rich because she is a retired nurse. However she has a BTL, holiday home & no mortgage. Who is richer?

BoE this year has asked for employers to be cautious about wage increases because it also FUELS inflation… vicious circle.

Again the lower earners won't see generally see increases but for some eg bankers this year bonuses have been at record levels

… everyone will vote for a government where SOMEONE ELSE has to foot the bill for the extra taxes.

We pay higher taxes as a household anyway which I'm happy to do. I just want better services.

God why do people keep going on about how much tax they pay, don't you see its doesn't matter, what matters is standard of living.
Let's say you work full time and have two kids. In country A you pay 50% of your income in tax, in country B you pay 25% of your income in tax.
Country A you have a comfortable warm house, good cheap public transport, childcare and healthcare, with money left over for treats.
Country B you have a cold damp, massively expensive home, expensive public transport and childcare and no money left over for treats.
But poor fools in country A letting the government take 50% of their income, the people in country B would never do that, too smart!

@Crikeyalmighty You see less people on mobility scooters in the Scandinavian countries than in Britain because they have a smaller percentage of disabled and morbidly obese people. A lot smaller percentage.
There are various reasons for this: Better health care, better health and safety rules, less traffic accidents and people eat better.

Ih right. I should add that in the Scandinavian countries people actually abide by the health and safety rules.

Again the lower earners won't see generally see increases but for some eg bankers this year bonuses have been at record levels

That’s not entirely true - www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/march2022

Average total pay growth for the private sector was 5.3% in November 2021 to January 2022, and for the public sector was 2.4% in the same time period.

All industry sectors saw pay growth in November 2021 to January 2022, with the finance and business services sector seeing the largest growth rate at 8.6% as well as strong bonus payments.

And in real terms:

In real terms (adjusted for inflation), in November 2021 to January 2022, growth in total pay (inc bonuses) was 0.1% and regular pay (ex bonuses) fell on the year at negative 1.0%.

Read caveats on interpreting data but you have to look at bonuses as part of total pay, not on their own.

@giggbig both higher and highest taxpayers here too. Think my new beef will definitely be all the people not paying enough NI!!

Would you rather see another decade of Torys rule? Seriously?!!

Read caveats on interpreting data but you have to look at bonuses as part of total pay, not on their own.

True & its job/industry/firm specific.

@SonicWomb I'm the idiot who paid the extra for a few years due to young dc & then realised I had paid since 17 & my retirement age had increased, doh!

I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.
This is a complex issue. Sweden, for example, doesn't have a minimum wage. Because society is more cohesive and trade unions are involved, it doesn't need one. We only needed a minimum wage because there are people who would pay 10p an hour here if they could get away with it.

If country A is supposed to be Sweden I might say that I live on the outskirts of a small town in the southern half of Sweden. It has a doctors surgery 2 days a week. It is 1 hr on a bus that runs twice a day to a bigger town. However this town does not have an A&E, you need to go to the hospital in the county city. It would take about 2 hours by public transport to get there if you time your emergency right.
I know this because I visited last week and was unpleasantly surprised by this.It was not too bad for me as I had the car but for the many older people who are “encouraged” to live at home despite deteriorating health it is not so good.

it may be ok in the bigger cities but it is not all milk and honey.

Ouch - you know there are NI credits for that though? If you’re not working but your DP is over the threshold, you have to register for child benefit then nominate not to receive the payment or else he declared in his tax return. So essentially you don’t get the benefit payments but you get the NI credits against your contribution years. Sorry a bit off topic …

found this out after, idiot.

i'm the idiot, not you! just read that back 😆

@giggbig 😂… don’t worry I realised that!! Not idiot at all, no one tells you, why would you know. Most of my SAHM friends had no clue either.

If anyone wants to emigrate to Sweden/Denmark/Germany/ Netherlands though can I mention a few things

Post Brexit it really isn't simple if you want to bring your stuff over here (we are in Denmark) it involves enormous carnets we didn't have it on the way out- but now have it on returning.

Criteria very very strict unless you have a shortage occupation , if you want to come over here and work for yourself as a family you need £30k in bank. Way easier if you work for someone like the UN . Language whilst most people speak great English unless you work for someone like a big multinational most companies want you to speak Danish as well - even for basic jobs, so you end up with one half of a couple with a good relocated role and the other half can't get a semi decent job and you will be bottom of the pile for being selected against other Danes and other EU people as it involves more hoops to jump through as non EU which is why you have middle aged intelligent graduates here British, South American, Australian working as cleaners etc .

I am fascinated though at those who go on about 'dull' - I guess it depends where you live and what you like doing as most I knew in uk seem to spend most time dealing with work, kids, shopping, odd meal or drink out, day trips out. I can't see why it's any more dull here, vast amounts of UK are an extraordinarily dull lifestyle for many people. If you mean you don't get fracas in the street or that much to moan about-- yes it's a bit dull.

The UK does have some things I prefer, it can be very 'shut' here over bank holidays and I miss friends a lot and seeing family - and I do miss hearing english spoken around me and nosing into other people's conversations

Oh and if I can just mention about healthcare , if you need hospital or ambulance , it's extremely good and efficient, if you need a doctor it's like pulling teeth, not dissimilar to UK and you can't buy anything over the counter apart from ibruprofen or paracatemol, nowhere like Boots etc. They really seem to believe in not taking anything, we bring stuff back with us on uk trips. A lot of very normal stuff you can only get on prescription. As you can imagine the Americans here go nuts about it