That her words about the UK really depressed me?

[NaturalScone]

Talking to a Swedish colleague this afternoon, not had much of a chance to in the past and we ended up discussing the news.
She mentioned how peculiar our politics were, how we have such a massive wealth divide (as we all know) with little encouragement for people from all walks of life and backgrounds to have equal opportunities. By this she meant how Uni education is funded over there so nobody is in debt, which means many more young people are able to chase professional careers, without massive debt.
Also, the work ethic, how people in Northern Europe are encouraged to prioritise health and wellbeing as well as work, and how well housing, health, etc work over there.

I stupidly mentioned Boris J and she said he would likely already be sacked or various offences. I also didn't know that many European monarchs had to either self fund (?) or had most of their palaces belonging to the public.

Are we going backwards here? It left me feeling pretty depressed. I see people on here all the time saying we are so lucky here, but I think the bar is set really low compared to much of Europe. And now we are less connected to Europe, many people here only judge our standards by the US, as if the EU is somehow 'foreign'.
It all sounds a bit scary if I think about it, we do seem so easily led by a one-party representational media/press (right). And whilst I am not generally partisan, I do feel weirdly uncomfortable. She even said the tories were set to abolish channel 4 and soon the BBC because they were too neutral. I find that fairly terrifying and wonder where we re headed. I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.

I usually look for the positives in what we've got, because it feels better than admitting things are that bad, but now I just don't know. And not much I can do about it either!
Something does feel harsher and more divided nowadays, and politicians are able to do anything without fear of reprisal. The UK press is incredibly dire! Do other people see this?

Suspect some PPs want Western European levels of social services for USA levels of tax. Will soon have USA levels of social services for Western European levels of tax. There will be enormous contortions by the government to disguise this while avoiding taxes that adversely affect their electorate.

Can't see that continuing, unfortunately, as I have a Scottish grandchild! Interesting that they charge English students more than any others, if English universities were to discriminate against one country there would be hell to pay. The Barnett formula for funding Scottish largesse needs adjusting to make it equitable.

@Crikeyalmighty

we live in France. I think weekend / holidays / back holidays do feel full sometimes as French people are very family oriented, so there is a lot less open / to do on these days. My children’s friends spend a lot of the holidays being shipped off to their grand parents or in colonie de vacances etc - so despite being on holiday for 7/8 weeks in the summer my kids are often the only ones around. Ditto weekend / public holidays - shops are shut and friends are spending time with family - we don’t have any family here so it does feel a bit dull at times.

@MarshmallowSwede did you really have to be that arrogant? There are many better ways of doing things. Sweden doesn't have monopoly in it. Ikea and H&M, two major brands from Sweden, are not paying fair wages and polluting the planet.

Now some facts to consider before calling London 'filthy' and saying even affluent neighborhoods are not impressive compared to ones in Sweden.

Sweden has area almost double of the UK but it's population is only 1/6th.

Sweden is lucky to have natural resources whereas UK has been a service economy for a long time.

There is no doubt that Boris Johnson needs to go. But it's a very simplistic view that BoJo leaving will solve the problem. Likes of Bojo are taking advantage of the fact that UK as a country and economy has far more complexities than many developed countries and there is no leadership which can provide a quick fix. So those at the bottom of economy are easy to be lured by the greedy, power hungry politicians.

@workwoes123 I totally agree with you on that aspect- it's not having the local friends or family that make the difference - I have found it a bit dull for those very reasons- not because Copenhagen is dull- it isn't!! Awhen the weather improves and it's nice here at the moment, they all go off camping or outdoorsy stuff in groups and families, and few expats have that luxury of company on their doorstep

Do you have a brain of your own? No need to rely on borrowing secondhand views and information.

If Sweden is so great, why does she live in UK?

‘Do you have a brain of your own’. Bloody hell. And if you read some of the responses here, you will find out why some people live here instead if their country of origin. Worrying about one’s country, seeing others coping better than us is not something to be attacked about. It’s not a form of anti-patriotism.

Also their life expectancy is lower because they smoke and drink more...

Actually, sorry, that's just Denmark :) Lower life expectancy than the UK. Not by much but it's the smoke and booze because they're happier (as we know) and do more exercise.

@2bazookas the quality of living in a country actually matters far less to immigrants particularly those from richer countries. Housing affordability is less of a concern if you can buy a home in your home country and move there when you are no longer earning. So is healthcare if you have other options. I am still paying health insurance in my home country for that reason as well as private healthcare in the UK, so less affected by NHS than native Brits..

Ehen we are assessing a country though, we should generally assess how life is for the average person and also for the poor in addition to the middle class. On the basis that that person will retire and seek health treatment, be educated in the UK. Rather than having the ability to leave when it suits him or her..

Your Swedish friend is right, but I'd have been just as depressed as you if I heard that conversation. It's like IMO being dumped then your friend telling you all about how your life sucks because you've been dumped.

I spent 17 years overseas on contracts, lots on Western and Central Europe and really wanted to retire in one of the places I worked but Brexit ruined all that for me. Can't speak for Sweden but in plenty of places I couldn't believe how different things were - for example middle aged women and men don't disappear, they were all over the charts, TV, soaps, etc., - so you felt valuable at any age - people had an amazingly better work life balance, bin collection, trains, all services like that just ran so nicely, lovelier scenery, less people,...just a feeling that I could live in the moment in many of the places I worked rather than feeling like I was kind of suffering in the present to build a future somewhere down the road.

Don't get me wrong there's lots about England that's nice but no way would I be here if Brexit had failed. It's so depressing to have someone point it out to me though.

Yes. The Westministender threads were terribly depressing. First most of the EU posters gradually disappeared as they all went back to the EU and got on with no doubt better lives there. Then the UK citizens who managed to get out of the UK early stopped posting as they gave up caring about those of us left in the UK and became absorbed by their better lives in the EU. Finally, people here who have dual nationality for their families were constantly reminding us that our children are totally fucked in comparison with theirs, who have countless amazing opportunities with freedom of movement.

We perhaps would have stayed had I not gotten pregnant. The thought of having to use medical care (even private) in the UK filled me with dread and there was no way I was going to give birth there.

And yet thousands of women give birth in Britain every year and have nothing but praise for the treatment they receive.

I’m happily back in Stockholm and can no longer muck up the place with my Swedish smugness and telliNg you how filthy London is and how terrible your healthcare is.

I'm glad you're happy and don't have to be 'filled with dread' at the thought of giving birth in a 3rd world country. I don't envy you in the slightest however. Stockholm is a beautiful city but Sweden is a rather dull and highly conformist society whose people labour under the delusion that it's somehow uniquely wonderful. On MN, it's common to read thread after thread with people going on about how awful Britain is. I can't imagine the same on the Swedish equivalent, and that's not because Sweden is perfect, but because Swedes insist on believing it is.

Finally, people here who have dual nationality for their families were constantly reminding us that our children are totally fucked in comparison with theirs, who have countless amazing opportunities with freedom of movement.

Yeah it's so depressing when people do this with barely disguised glee. Another way the UK has been divided into the Haves and Have Nots.

Are you me? 😂Brexit ruined my retirement plans too. And you’re absolutely spot on about less ageism elsewhere.

Even Hunt reckons that around 1000 babies die who wouldn't if we had Scandinavian levels of healthcare and 2 out 5 maternity units offer unsafe care, lack of staff, you cannot run a safe healthcare service with 100k vacancies and a failed social care system.

I don't think thats anything to be happy about, perhaps Tory voters don't care.

A Polish couple i was close friends with, went home when she became pregnant, they didn't want a birth in the UK nor did they want to bring their child up here... the racism they experienced was unprintable.

Highly skilled workers, lost to the UK.

Ask your friend how she feels about Sweden having the highest gun crime rate in the whole of Europe and the fact that it's rising sharply whilst the rest of Europe has seen a steady decline since the early 2000s. Linked to financial inequality and areas of social deprivation apparently.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.barrons.com/amp/news/sweden-tops-europe-in-fatal-shootings-report-shows-01622034913

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/26/fatal-shootings-have-risen-in-sweden-despite-fall-across-europe-report-finds

Continuing??? It hasn't even started for many Scottish students as places are so heavily capped. Funding for FE colleges has also been decimated meaning many useful courses have just gone pouf. At my local FE college you can no longer study plumbing, joinery, bricklaying etc, denying a great opportunity to many young people. Oh, and the bursary was halved a few years ago. It's a shitstorm.

Its linked to Criminal Gangs with revenge killings according to your link, with 47 murders... how do you feel about knife crime in London?

Even Hunt reckons that around 1000 babies die who wouldn't if we had Scandinavian levels of healthcare and 2 out 5 maternity units offer unsafe care, lack of staff, you cannot run a safe healthcare service with 100k vacancies and a failed social care system.

I don't think thats anything to be happy about, perhaps Tory voters don't care.

I am not and never have been a Tory voter, so that's a weak response.

I have no idea who 'Even Hunt' is, but anyone who speaks of 'Scandinavian levels of healthcare' doesn't sound very reliable to me, as Scandinavia consists of 3 countries with different healthcare systems.

A Polish couple i was close friends with, went home when she became pregnant, they didn't want a birth in the UK nor did they want to bring their child up here... the racism they experienced was unprintable.

I'm sorry about that, but Poland is, by any standard, a much more racist country than Britain, and with much regressive social attitudes in general.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles have chosen to live in Britain. Hardly any Brits choose to live in Poland.

OP I hear you and I feel the same. Sometimes I feel really down about how crap the UK is perceived to be/is. It’s hard not to take the criticisms of the country personally even if you don’t vote Tory/Brexit etc. We holiday regularly in Europe and love it.

However…we live in a lovely city in the UK (well I love it!) which is interesting and hugely diverse. Our kids go to great schools, we have loads of green spaces and access to great clubs and activities on weekends. DH and I are lucky to have good jobs. We socialise with friends and generally enjoy life a lot despite the current squeezes.

I try to focus on all the positives and do what I can to help improve our country (eg litter picking, giving to charity/food banks) rather than be gloomy about it. I work in higher education and have colleagues from all over and generally they are very positive about the UK. Scandinavian colleagues do often talk about how great it is there although a good Swedish friend prefers the UK as they love the banter and he said Sweden can be quite boring (especially if you’re not from there). He also said the variety of restaurants and what’s available in supermarkets is v limited compared to here outside major cities (and very expensive!).

Ultimately we are all free to make choices- to stay in the UK, to emigrate (depending on finances, jobs, visas) etc if we wanted to. And if we stay I feel we should try to be positive and contribute to society to make it a better place. Sometimes it feels like we are fighting against the government but hopefully that will change at the next election.

Theres a lot of good in the world, including the UK 😊

@IcedPurple a long answer but you failed to even acknowledge the points i raised (let alone any argument) just diverted to completely unrelated subjects.

..having read a few of your posts in the past, esp on CV/Vaxx/lockdowns, i'm pretty sure you know exactly which Hunt i was talking about, who tbf did try and employ an extra 3000 midwives, failed though.

So as i said, Tories (and their supporters) don't care, 1000 avoidable child deaths per year & what have they done about this? nothing at all.

Swedish friend prefers the UK as they love the banter and he said Sweden can be quite boring

This was my experience of Sweden. Lovely people, but compared to London, my God Stockholm was DULL. I could never live there- obviously everyone is different but I found it really bland even to less busy parts of the UK

It's daft imv to say it's all down to the evil Tories.
Imv it's all down to having no money - after the banking crash in 2008, which would have affected us more than the rest of Europe as finance was our main tax earner, hence we've had 10 years of austerity - which ruined public services, and no new industry or earner to get back on our feet. Brexit didn't help and Covid sealed our skint state.
That's why everything is crap and scruffy compared to other countries.
How do we get out of it - I've no idea.
But I think all countries are going to have serious belt tightening.

Well it’s the NHS/GP situation, ok it’s free but you are waiting weeks for an appointment. I couldn’t live in the UK for that reason.

There are lots of good things though.