That her words about the UK really depressed me?

[NaturalScone]

Talking to a Swedish colleague this afternoon, not had much of a chance to in the past and we ended up discussing the news.
She mentioned how peculiar our politics were, how we have such a massive wealth divide (as we all know) with little encouragement for people from all walks of life and backgrounds to have equal opportunities. By this she meant how Uni education is funded over there so nobody is in debt, which means many more young people are able to chase professional careers, without massive debt.
Also, the work ethic, how people in Northern Europe are encouraged to prioritise health and wellbeing as well as work, and how well housing, health, etc work over there.

I stupidly mentioned Boris J and she said he would likely already be sacked or various offences. I also didn't know that many European monarchs had to either self fund (?) or had most of their palaces belonging to the public.

Are we going backwards here? It left me feeling pretty depressed. I see people on here all the time saying we are so lucky here, but I think the bar is set really low compared to much of Europe. And now we are less connected to Europe, many people here only judge our standards by the US, as if the EU is somehow 'foreign'.
It all sounds a bit scary if I think about it, we do seem so easily led by a one-party representational media/press (right). And whilst I am not generally partisan, I do feel weirdly uncomfortable. She even said the tories were set to abolish channel 4 and soon the BBC because they were too neutral. I find that fairly terrifying and wonder where we re headed. I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.

I usually look for the positives in what we've got, because it feels better than admitting things are that bad, but now I just don't know. And not much I can do about it either!
Something does feel harsher and more divided nowadays, and politicians are able to do anything without fear of reprisal. The UK press is incredibly dire! Do other people see this?

@Felix0204 I am singaporean. There isn't a welfare state in Singapore which many here would object to... But at the same time, the population seems more upwardly mobile, people do better than their parent and the government builds subsidized homes for it's citizen so the home ownership rate is 89%.

it's a city state so its easier to provide good services with low taxes. You can't really compare it to the UK. Also Singaporeans work far longer hours than people in the UK and I find as a whole they are more focused on earning money than quality of life (maybe because we are all descendant of immigrants and many people remember the poverty of our grandparents), so I can imagine this drives economic growth which is good for the government coffers. On the other hand, I find that a lot of people here assume that they would always be able to support themselves even with meagre pay, no family support and a fairly threadbare welfare system. There is no reason for this, but I find this response common when I talk to people IRL about cost of living crisis. People would say, there is lots of help available or we will get by, we will just not heat the house and go to Aldi. Singaporeans would never respond like that, I have met millionaires who are paranoid of making ends meet in Singapore despite having zero cause of worry. It's why a lot of young people in Singapore live with their parents well into their 30s despite earning 6 figures. It's not just culture. We call this kiasi or scared to die. I know of hardly any families who aren't dual income and it's not because they earn less than their counterparts in the UK (and honestly with subsidized housing their mortgage may not be higher than someone in the UK with a 3 bed house in the SE despite Singapore property prices being higher than the UK overall, also you can pay the mortgage using CPF).

I guess I just worry that labour won’t actually fix this stuff but introduce more issues.

i can’t believe this bunch of people on both sides is the best we have?! Honestly… the last politician I actually thought did ok was Obama and he doesn’t even live here 😂

I wish there was a party which was full of normal people… yes rishi, not you.

I want the rich taxed more. Uni free. Much much improved healthcare. Better standard of living. Better cost of living. Wish there was a new party.

I really worry labour will start applying their woke agenda on these things and get caught up in all of that instead of seeing the bigger picture.

Was any of what she said new to you?

I agree with her but I don’t understand why you would be depressed after speaking to her when you were aware of the situation.

The post asking ‘and she chooses to live here’ is a classic anti immigration one. People don’t choose to live in a place only because it’s better economically. It could be due to marrying someone British, fleeing, etc etc. I detest that remark tbh

Labour don’t care either and dont Do anything to capture people like me. They know I could be convinced but won’t change or do anything to sweep up people like me. And there are a lot of us.

OP, you dod know that Sweden was a socialist regime and that the idea of citizens paying high taxes on anything considered a luxury for the greater good is deeply ingrained in Swedish society. They are one of the most 'equal' countries with the least sexism and it's a beautiful country. But it is very dull in comparison to other European places. Most EU countries look at the the UK in amused disbelief, we are indeed a laughing stock. I don't think it should depress you though. You can always join a political party and try to change things or emigrate.

I want the rich taxed more. Uni free. Much much improved healthcare. Better standard of living. Better cost of living. Wish there was a new party

Corbyn promised all of that and was roundly rejected.

I know what you mean. I initially thought shift to centre would be good but pp on why they can’t vote for them resonates

It's very British to do this kind of hand-wringing. I think it stems from prejudice that Britain should be superior rather than understanding that everywhere has problems.

I'm sure Sweden is lovely but nowhere is perfect. UK is wildly better place to live than many of the rich countries, just not better than all of them. UK had huge social inequality problems in living memory. Things are improving wrt social equality, just not constantly & evenly. Example: Reading Kate Adie's autobiography about the physical conditions of Northern Ireland rioters was sobering. Very unhealthy populations.

"if something was wrong with you and you were admitted to hospital (for which the threshold is considerably lower) you would not leave until the doctors knew what was wrong with you. "

Be careful what you wish for. Most countries, if people can afford it, people get over-treated. They demand a diagnosis and treatment so they get it -- even if it's not helpful or appropriate treatment!! That's why it's so easy to get antibiotics in most countries. Demand and Ye shall get (something ... may not be what you need at all).

Why do people think it's so easy to emigrate? If you don't have money, it's pretty much impossible. If you do have money, it's very difficult. "You can always emigrate" - such a stupid, ignorant and nasty thing to say.

The self funding royals thing- did you tell her about the crown estates and that by funding the royals, the tax payer is better off? (In case you don't know, the monarch signs over the crown estates to the management of the government. The government takes the profit from this in exchange for the civil list payment back to the royals. The amount the government takes in from the crown estates is something like 3 times what we pay out.

So fun fact, when Charles becomes king, he will have to sign over the crown estates again, but if he wants to, he could refuse in order to make the Royal family "self funding and independent" - this will leave the tax payer worse off, but is a more morally dependable position.

To all those people saying she chooses to live here so how dare she complain-it’s possible she has a good career here and has a good lifestyle herself. It doesn’t stop her noticing what’s wrong with the UK though. We do have an enormous wealth gap and inequality here compared to the Scandinavian countries. I had Scandinavian friends years ago when I lived in London who said the same thing-the level of inequality was very noticeable and the difference in schools depending on where you live was striking. Things have got worse for lower earners since then. I don’t understand why people get defensive when someone from another country notices things-it would be a good idea if we saw what other countries did particularly well and to investigate whether things need to change here. I used to live abroad and saw things that were an improvement on the UK system and also things which made me feel glad we had them in the UK. But on the whole, as one of the richest countries in the world, much of our population finds life a real struggle.

The planet is being destroyed and the Greens who should be leading the Gov by now are running down the 'unable to describe a woman' tunnel.

couldn't really make it up. I just despair.

I’d vote for someone who talked like this.

I also can't understand why people are getting upset about the valid criticism of our country in its current state. That our standard of living and ability to move up a social level is declining, is fact, not opinion. Our NHS waiting lists, care and outcomes is on a downwards trajectory; look at maternity and cancer outcomes. Look at the way home ownership and air Bnb has made even renting impossible in some areas. Look at what has happened to education, including higher education. Look at health and life expectancy in poorer areas. Look at obscene wages of CEOs and corporations not being made to pay tax. This country was beginning to become more equal until a couple of decades ago, but now it isn't. I feel worried for my DC. I love my country (and am a child of an immigrant) but I feel it's fucked right now.

Sweden has its own problems.

Well she's not wrong. I've spent a fair bit of time in Sweden and it's not without it's faults. However I feel (as an outsider looking in) that there's a genuine feeling that the government uses citizen's taxes to improve quality of life for everyone. I'm sure people do complain about the high rates of tax but I've never heard anyone. Friends I made there do frequently comment on the absurdity of our childcare system though where childcare is more or less the equivalent of one parent's salary making it pointless for one person to work in many cases.

I'd agree that presenteeism (sp?) isn't really a thing there and there's more of a feeling that you work to live not the other way around.

And on a personal note their system of buying and selling houses is much less of a fuck on than ours.

What I find interesting is years ago when we had to have that conservative/liberal coalition government, it was presented in our media as a total disaster for the U.K. whereas in many European countries it's seen as either the norm or an ideal situation as it allows for a compromise and prevents one party from getting too powerful. The two party system of the US and the practically one party system of the U.K. (until kier hopefully gets his act together) do not best represent the interests of those who they are meant to represent.

"Sweden has its own problems."

Nice bit of anti-immigrant propganda you're posting there (see the link on the pic).

I want the rich taxed more

@Directorlevelmaybe I’m in agreement with your politically but I think this statement is overused and is the perfect way for everyone to say that someone else should be taxed more than them because there’s generally someone who is richer than them.

I think everyone needs to be taxed differently . “The rich” already pay almost 2/3 of their income in taxes, made up of 45% + NI. You can’t really go much height than that without bringing that thresholds down and redefining “rich”. It just doesn’t raise enough.

Differently means taxing capital gains on homes, or at least taxing homes differently, having higher inheritance tax… I know in the past that wouldn’t have worked but the baby boomer generation will be the wealthiest generation that has ever lived and it’s unlikely any generation will be so relatively wealthy again. We need to close loopholes available to the rich, for example my 80 year old neighbour has just put his £4 million house in trust for his middle aged kids in order to minimise paying inheritance tax on that and whatever else he has.Demographic structures are changing and the system needs to change accordingly. Corporation taxes have to play a huge part in this too, it’s not just about individuals. Companies need to live their ESG values more and actually recognise their contribution to society in terms of jobs, investment, wages and services … rather than just writing shiny brochures about it for their investors.

As for Jeremy Corbyn. He was just a bitter socialist full of hatred for anyone who has any kind of aspiration or success in life. We need a modern approach for a modern, fair, inclusive and aspirational society, not more dinosaurs who are living out their parents’ wet dreams (yes you too JRM).

Strange that you should think these two to be the only two choices.

@sst1234 not strange at all. In the situation we were in there was only two choices. In a lockdown you either support businesses or you don't.

Whether we should have locked down or not is a separate point. The route the gov chose was lockdown & my point was referring to what actually happened.

We need to tax differently. Target wealth similar to income, so increase CGT, the new house for your care should be a % not an amount. I would also favour more aggressive levies on multiple home/foreign ownership. We need much less money tied up in mortgages/rent.

“The rich” already pay almost 2/3 of their income in taxes, made up of 45% + NI. You can’t really go much height than that without bringing that thresholds down and redefining “rich”.

They are not all it together though.

"Using anonymised data from personal tax returns, we show that in 2015-16 the average rate of tax paid by people who received one million pounds in taxable income and gains was just 35 per cent: the same as someone earning £100,000. But one in four of these paid 45 per cent – close to the top rate – whilst another quarter paid less than 30 per cent overall. One in ten paid just 11 per cent—the same as someone earning £15,000. The rich, it seems, are not all in it together."
LSE

It’s not a separate point. It is THE point. Starting a fire in your own home and then complaining that you had no choice but to leave is what happened here.

@giggbig you’re making the same point as me - close the loopholes, that’s different to “taxing the rich more” it’s just making sure they pay their fair share. And by the way, making sure people pay their fair share also applies to the self employed and huge numbers of people who don’t declare all their income (although after realising that furlough was based on their tax returns I wonder how many will magically be earning more this year). It happens at every level across society not just “the rich”. Basically the only people who are generally paying the full amount of tax that they are due to are the ones whose income comes through PAYE where it can’t be avoided. Hence the reason I say we need to change the system for everything else.

I do however think we need to redefine what “rich” means. Everyone wants to think it means someone else, not them. Many of us are far far richer than we’d acknowledge, one of the reasons being that we don’t feel rich because as you say, so much money tied up in mortgages and rent, and cost of living sky rocketing. BoE this year has asked for employers to be cautious about wage increases because it also FUELS inflation… vicious circle.

If we had better provision for everyone we would all feel more wealthy, we need to remember that wealth isn’t just about what we have in the bank.

completely agree

By the way I think that NI and Income Tax should be combined. Absolutely ridiculous that someone can earn income through non PAYE means (eg property, pensions, dividends, capital gains) and NOT pay NI. Every single person in the country with any income at all should be paying it.

So that’s another area where we aren’t “all in it together” either.