That her words about the UK really depressed me?

[NaturalScone]

Talking to a Swedish colleague this afternoon, not had much of a chance to in the past and we ended up discussing the news.
She mentioned how peculiar our politics were, how we have such a massive wealth divide (as we all know) with little encouragement for people from all walks of life and backgrounds to have equal opportunities. By this she meant how Uni education is funded over there so nobody is in debt, which means many more young people are able to chase professional careers, without massive debt.
Also, the work ethic, how people in Northern Europe are encouraged to prioritise health and wellbeing as well as work, and how well housing, health, etc work over there.

I stupidly mentioned Boris J and she said he would likely already be sacked or various offences. I also didn't know that many European monarchs had to either self fund (?) or had most of their palaces belonging to the public.

Are we going backwards here? It left me feeling pretty depressed. I see people on here all the time saying we are so lucky here, but I think the bar is set really low compared to much of Europe. And now we are less connected to Europe, many people here only judge our standards by the US, as if the EU is somehow 'foreign'.
It all sounds a bit scary if I think about it, we do seem so easily led by a one-party representational media/press (right). And whilst I am not generally partisan, I do feel weirdly uncomfortable. She even said the tories were set to abolish channel 4 and soon the BBC because they were too neutral. I find that fairly terrifying and wonder where we re headed. I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.

I usually look for the positives in what we've got, because it feels better than admitting things are that bad, but now I just don't know. And not much I can do about it either!
Something does feel harsher and more divided nowadays, and politicians are able to do anything without fear of reprisal. The UK press is incredibly dire! Do other people see this?

And the figures for independence don't add up.

Always find it interesting when unionists say that. The UK's national debt is something like €2.2 trillion and growing, so it's not like we are a shining example of fiscal responsibility.

I know some also like to throw about the "deficit" issue but that's really an irrelevance as 1) most countries run a deficit, the UK has had one for 44 of the laat 50 years and 2) no one knows for sure that whether Scotland would run a deficit (more than likely would would) or, more importantly, what it would look like. The GERS figures used by the union have been widely discredited as they just make random assumptions and fail to account for numerous revenue streams.

It's very odd that in the eyes of unionists Scotland, with 1/10th the population of the UK, a vast abundance of natural resources (not only oil and gas before someone chucks that about as per), and several thriving industries would automatucally become the next Somalia if it were to go independent.

Makes you wonder how places like Norway, Iceland, Finland, New Zealand, Netherlands, and Sweden all manage to survive (and often thrive) without a overpopulated neighbour hoovering up all their resources........👀

I previously considered Brexit an issue of immigration, but to be honest I now wonder if that was a red herring and the true motivation was to get us clear of having to take on EU worker's rights and values.

The think tanks and wealthy who supported Brexit were libertarians - the small Lexit (left wingers for Brexit) movement had different motivations - and this heavily suggests their motivation for wanting to leave EU was precisely because they wanted an economy with v little regulations, the Singapore on the Thames that people referred to.

Surprise surprise, all the usual crap about vast natural resources. What will we do, nationalise everything? The countries you mention don't have, and never have had some of the problems we have up here, endemic poverty, drugs, a failing education system, a health service that creaks along while politicians pat themselves on the back and ignore reality, all helped by a complicit media. A judicial system up to its neck in crap, corruption in high places, you name it, we've got it. But no, indymince will fix all that. Not! Name me one time in history when Scotland, as a separate country, was peaceful apart from about 10 minutes when Kenneth MacAlpin was king of most of it. Bet you can't. Scotland, one of the loveliest places on earth was and in some respects still is riven by infighting, clan warfare, sectarianism, bloodshed, petty rivalries, north v south, east v west, sectarianism etc. Can you honestly say we have changed? Sadly I don't think we have.

I've lived in a Scandi country and know very well the 'We do everything so well here'.
I must admit, I do admire the society they have built and there's certainly plenty to learn from them plus I don't like the way the UK is going socially.
That said, I could never live there long term. It's a closed society, quite racist and provincial in so many ways. As a foreigner, you don't fit it - it's like you're a guest at a party and you can enjoy the party but they don't want you to stay. And if you're a non-white foreigner, even less so. Compared to Scandi, the UK is so tolerant and multicultural and accepting.
There's a lot of pressure for everyone to do things in the same way, especially in the schools. In a way, I liked it but it's not for me really.
And it's not some socialist paradise. We were renting but had no social protections. There isn't a deposit protection scheme like in the UK , for example, and we had to fight our landlord to get our deposit back (with deductions).

So, yeah, while I think we can learn a lot from Scandi countries - there is a lot they do right - the UK has some pretty awesome stuff going for it too and it's not like it's some kind of hellhole!

That said, I do think the OP's friend has pointed to some of the good things about the Scandi countries and the bad ones about the UK and is right about those issues. Just that there is more when comparing countries and, for many many reasons, I would choose living in the UK over Scandi despite everything.

Exactly, @Perfectlystill — same with the U.S. People will give you a long list of all the evils and imperfections while discounting the multitudes trying desperately to move there.
It can’t be that bad.
I’d choose either country over a vast many others, even with their foibles.

Misleading as university is CAPPED in Scotland as the Scottish Government aka SNP cannot afford to pay for it properly. Over 15,000 students in Scotland cannot get a uni place. Students from privileged backgrounds go to uni in Scotland at TWICE the rate of disadvantaged students.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland all send more students from disadvantaged backgrounds to university proportionately than Scotland as a result.

Martin Lewis is correct that student loans is really a graduate contribution most never repay in full. And a good proportion never actually repay a penny.

But it's not 'better' in any real sense.
Of course people want to gontonplaces thah they've seen in films and whose language they may speak some of....

So unless someone is fluent in another European language... Naturally they will gravitate to the country they have some knowledge of... If only from films!

Also... Pekole want to go to places where family & friends are

B.S… have you seen in the interviews most of them barely speak any English… and the family/friends thing is nonsense too.
Its really because disappearing into the black economy is easier in the U.K. we don’t have national ID.

OP while what your ‘friend’ said is true I wouldn’t go so far to be depressed by it. What’s the point of being depressed. Fight for what you believe in.

For me, while she makes good points, and the channel 4 moves make me pretty sad, there are lots of great things about the UK. For one, we are making great moves on climate and the environment, lots of regulation here especially for banks to follow, which trickles down to all suppliers and customers in the economy. In my area we have fantastic restaurants and shops opening up all the time. In my area they’ve also clearly done a huge tree planting drive, new trees down every street and every park - these will be beautiful in many years to come. Our local council has been immensely supportive protecting us from a pretty evil faceless owner of a park nearby who keeps trying to close it, the council steps in immediately and keeps it open for residents and is on our side — they aren’t corrupt. This is fantastic.

There is inequality but this is a growing universal problem and the UK has things like inheritance tax to work against this. Looking at even the Tories, they are really diverse - we have had female prime ministers and the ethnic diversity even in the Tory party is something to be really proud of! Women here get 52 weeks mat leave - not the best in Europe but far from the worst in Europe and much much better than the global average!

I moved to the UK for my career and to find more opportunities! I didn’t move to Sweden!

The press in the UK is also excellent compared to many many places (in fact I’m actually struggling to think of anywhere with better press??).

Right, so the UK is crap - except that it’s so much better to live in than your other alternative. It’s crap but it’s better for being multicultural and because of the small matter of being able to provide a decent job. The case is well and truly rested on this thread.

I’m surprised you are shocked by this op.. to me it’s a bit obvious that’s the reality of life in the UK. And Brexit being an excuse to move away from decent worker rights in the UK- you know we have a Tory government right?! What do you think they care about more? Immigration (cheap labour?) or keeping workers rights nice and comfortable for the working people?? You seem a tad naive to me sorry Xox

Agree with this. I live in Scotland and find it generally a very depressing place to be.

There is inequality but this is a growing universal problem and the UK has things like inheritance tax to work against this.

It doesn't though as income is very unequal & wealth even more so.

Also don't people the UK is now a high tax economy too? 😆

how could they expect the economy not to be fucked when millions have sat on their arse being paid 80 percent of their wages. Incredibly short sighted there's going to be a lot of pain.

Do you think people shouldn't have been paid if their jobs were stopped? Or did you think mass redundancies & business closures wouldn't damage the economy?

Strange that you should think these two to be the only two choices. How about not locking down healthy people. I know that seems like a novel idea to so many but it really shouldn’t be. Healthy adults did not need to stay home and watch Netflix and banana bread. And that way the economy would not have been shut down. The rampant inflation and energy crisis today is because the economy shut down and supply chains ceased. This should not be be some big revelation, this was the obvious consequence of the hysterical madness that people happily took part in. And even advocated for more lockdowns. It’s hurting now though, isn’t it?

I've moved back and forth between the UK and parts of Northern/Western Europe a couple of times, and each have their pros and cons.

I do think at many levels Scandinavian societies function better. Just a small example: A couple of months ago a pothole appeared in the street in front of our house. The council fixed it within days. The last place I lived in the UK it would take months for a pothole to get fixed. On the other hand, I find civic society in Scandinavia in many ways non-existent. There is often an assumption that the council should do/fix/organise things. Sure, there's lots of sports clubs, or hobby groups, but I found there were very few that were generally concerned with just having a nice neighbourhood.

I don't agree with having to pay to see a GP and much prefer the NHS. On the other hand, in the last Scandinavian country where I lived I could have online therapy/counseling for £10 per session with basically no waiting list. After 10-ish sessions, it'd be free for the remaineder of the year.

The high taxation rate in Scandinavia is really not that different than tax in the UK though. 32% in Sweden, but no NI and no council tax either (and no TV license). On the other hand, almost no tax free allowance either. In the end it works out pretty similar in my experience. The much bigger difference is that the spread of salaries is much lower in Sweden: low-paid jobs pay better than in the UK while well-paid jobs pay less than in the UK.

Population of Denmark 1970 - 5 million
Population of Denmark 2020 - 5,700,000

Population U.K. 1970 - 55 million
Population of U.K. 2020 - 67 million

Pop of Sweden 1970 - 8 mill
Pop of Sweden 2020 - 10 million

Just looked this up for interests sake. We have a much bigger population so hard to compare.

'The press in the UK is also excellent compared to many many places (in fact I’m actually struggling to think of anywhere with better press??).'

Really? This index measures press freedom by country. Sweden ranks 3rd. The UK 33rd. This is a 2020 ranking and I suspect things have got worse since.
rsf.org/en/united-kingdom

This is also interesting as you can compare any 2 countries on a variety of indices
www.mylifeelsewhere.com/compare/sweden/united-kingdom
Stats which stood out to me....
In UK 75% more likely to die in childbirth in UK compared to Sweden, 35% more obese, 58% more likely to die in infancy, spend 29% less on education, pay 59% more for housing, pay 6.2x more for childcare.

Swede here. We moved back to Stockholm from London after living in the UK for a couple of years.

We came because you have better weather. And just for the experience of working in London for a couple of years.

We perhaps would have stayed had I not gotten pregnant. The thought of having to use medical care (even private) in the UK filled me with dread and there was no way I was going to give birth there.

My husband and I are both white swedes, but the amount of causal racism thrown around in conversation was shocking so you’re not as open as you like to think.

Economically we are better off in Sweden and the quality of life of London left a lot to be desired. I do feel you’re at a race to the bottom and your standards on what makes a “good life” is so low it’s ridiculous.

Of course Sweden is not a utopia as we also have issues, but I know the UK isn’t a well run or governed nation and your quality of life is in my opinion extremely low and getting worse.

we lived in the “wealthy part of london” and your wealthy areas are pretty standard normal Stockholm area. So I wasn’t impressed at all.

Also, the anti immigrant sentiment is pretty vile in the UK. Sweden is known for being anti Muslim in ways… but we certainly aren’t anti immigrant. I just think the UK overall isn’t welcoming to foreigners. Of course I’m one Swedish person so take it as a grain of salt.

As the standard response is to any criticism of the UK, yes I’ve gone back to where I come from. I’m happily back in Stockholm and can no longer muck up the place with my Swedish smugness and telliNg you how filthy London is and how terrible your healthcare is.

Do you really believe this nonsense?

People risk everything to come here for reasons like they have family or other connections here or because they can speak English, not because the UK is so much better than other countries.

A Swede talking politics?! That’s a first. My father’s side of the family is Swedish and my impression of Sweden and it’s citizens are that they have very little interest in the politics of their own country let alone other countries

As an aside
i adore GB (well England, never been to wales, Scotland or Ireland!)

No UK Gov can do anything about the NHS until it is failing so badly that they will not be immediately voted out of office by the 'cradle to grave' believers.
So I would guess we have maybe another 5 years at least of shit service then some charges will be introduced, then another 5 years while that money filters through to making any improvements.