work trip not what it seemed :/

[biokult]

Accepted a job of which international travel was involved, was very lucky in that I had a couple offers, which I turned down for my current position. Country is considered unsafe, however the insitute I would be based at is in a tourist-y area which is why I was comfortable agreeing.

Things have been very rushed due to lack of staff, and feel like my queries are not being answered.

My current dilemna is thus: a member of the team mentioned they would be based at a certain site, which was not the area I had expected to working in. I would then be expected to commute there via taxi, or "maybe collegues can drop you". I said no problem, assuming that if it was part of their company the area would also be fine.

Have since looked up the area and it is dodgy AF, yougov strongly recommend avoiding this and similar neighbourhoods. If you must go there you should have a local guide/security. Cabs will often refuse to pick you up from there due to high crime rate. I do not want to rely on collegues I do not for lifts in case they let me down and I am stuck.

I have agreed to the trip, although had this detail been made clear I would've said no. I feel like no precuations have been put in place, or discussed with me.

Please help me navigate this. My sister & her partner (who I live with) are being incredibly unhelpful, telling me to quit on the spot and no job is worth my life or being assualted etc etc. Obviously this is true, but I also want to maintain good working relationships and ideally not be unemployed!

Pretty pissed off tbh, anyone been in similar situations?

I was going to post about a male friend´s experience in Mexico when I saw your update, and it indeed is Mexico. He is a lawyer for a premium Spanish company and had to move to Mexico for just a few months for a deal. He was given once he got there precise instructions on what to do and what never to do for security reasons. One of the nots was lowering your window at toll machines on motorways to pay your way in cash. Card always and drive through without stopping, you could be gunned down, held at gun point your car and valuables stolen, beaten up...Instructions about taking taxis, real and false taxis. Police are spectacularly corrupt. I was working for this law firm in Spain and on two separate occasions two Mexican female employees were telling me about things they could do in Spain and wouldn´t dream of doing in Mexico. Take your security very seriously. And your relatives aren´t being unhelpful, they are being realistic. No job is worth this.

If you’re adventurous, confident and willing to take advice then go, the local women will soon tell you what is safe and what isn’t, Mexico isn’t the end of the world, if you’re doubtful ask to go over to check it out at the companies expense.

Advice/support from the local team can be helpful.

Unfortunately on one of my trips what we were advised was that the local female employees were always dropped at the company door by male relatives. Not helpful for a lone female traveller.

On another trip, on discovering that the host office had made no arrangements (I had travelled from HQ so it was assumed they would make arrangements), local team members would drop me and collect me from my hotel. I was given strict instructions not to step out of the hotel lobby/car until the car was exactly outside the hotel door.

Doing as the locals do is not always good advice. As a traveller subtle changes in atmosphere or environment can be missed.

On one trip to Sao Paulo I was given a card which informed me that in the event of fearing kidnap I should phone a particular number. I come from the home counties, I probably wouldn't spot a kidnap attempt until the sack was over my head and I was being bundled into the boot of a car.

I think you said there is already a team there? Was there a risk assessment done when they started working? How do they get to and from the area if taxis won't go there and it is too unsafe to be in the area?

You definitely need some answers and if your work involves going to areas identified as dangerous then you need to be aware of this and mitigation strategies put in place. If there are others already working there then there should be a good understanding of the risks and how they manage it.

I’m not sure what the problem is here? She may be annoyed? Ok, and? Let her be annoyed within her own boundary.

it sounds like she’s figured out you’ll roll over with little effort on her part, and if you think she won’t keep pushing her luck to see what she can get away with, you’re mistaken.

Why are you so anxious about this? The world isn’t going to crumble around you if you assert your boundaries. She’ll huff and puff, but so what?

I can absolutely see why your husband is annoyed tbh. All this hand wringing and worry about upsetting someone who is taking the piss out of you, and expecting him to do it for you like you’re a helpless child. I’d be fucked off too.

Wrong thread. Wtf.

Weird take from @Stravaig. If 'not being adventurous' means 'not taking gratuitous risk with life and limb by going alone as a conspicuous outsider to a place where it is strongly advised I do not go, without any plan or protection in place', then I think pretty much all human beings are not adventurous. The ones that are don't make it into middle age.

Hope you’ve had a decent response from work OP

How did you get on with the meeting OP?

I think that there is a real difference between a local team working somewhere and an obvioulsy foreign woman in same place.
For example, I was in Central Asia post 9/11 and there was a lot of security issues for people who looked 'American' which were not issues for our Korean colleagues.
So I would be very careful about being posted to this area.

Do you speak Spanish? If i had local language, and was going to stay with a local colleague or family I would be much happier than being dropped in ther alone.

I expect 99.5% of mumsnet members would be firmly in the 'not actually that adventurous' category

I expect 99.5% of mumsnet members/readers would be firmly in the "Putting the bins out after dark is dangerous and the spiders might get me and eat me* category but they're absolutely great at driving a desk or iPad....

I hope OP has managed to get this sorted, one way or another; and not to be sexist about it, but if the line manager is male, would he be happy for his daughter/wife/cousin/best female friend to go, and if the line manager is female, would she be happy to go herself with what sounds like a frankly lax to neglectful set of "preparations" and risk assessments.

Worst case scenario - do they really want the OP coming home in a body bag and/or the company being asked for a ransom of millions of dollars??? That just might focus their minds a bit.

(I've had a couple of boyfriends in the military, including some who've found themselves in very dodgy parts of the world. I'm fairly sure they would point out that civilians really should not put themselves in these kinds of situations if they don't have to.)

I have lived and worked in several developing countries.
My organistation trained me on how to behave in those countires and how to stay safe.
I lived alongside locals, so not as an 'expat' and rarely in tourist areas.

My husband now works in a role where he does risk assessment for people travelling in to areas like this.

There are dozens of red flags in this situation. Unless they are all resolved, I would not go. Yes sometimes we take risks, but they are calculated after everythign has been taken into account. Sometimes that is not enough and people get kidnapped and killed. But you shoudl not start from a place of high risk and no contingency plan in place.

IME Line Managers are very good at not seeing the safety problem when:

A. it isnt their own safety being compromised
B. the pressing problem is to get a person on site

They dont want to see the safety problem because it is inconvenient and also means facing up to the idea that they have put other people at risk through ignorance.

An employee getting kidnapped/murdered/assaulted would no doubt result in much handwringing and a complete overhaul of safety procedures but that is damn all use to the poor sod who is the victim.

Erm, it's the company's risk assessment, not yours. They have a duty to assess all foreseeable risks from any work you do on their behalf. You would usually work through it with them on travel such as this, especially if you've expressed a concern.

There are lots of organisations who send staff into 'undesirable areas' without months of planning so the experience of your friend who works in a different industry isn't really relevant.

I know you bristled against a PP who said this job isn't for you but it isn't. There are lots of areas that the FCO doesn't recommend travelling to, but that people from the UK do travel to and work in. Trip decisions are made at short notice and necessary mitigations are put in place eg security/drivers/interpreters/collection from airport/secure compound offices or living or secure hotel accommodation, etc.

I'm assuming from your posts that you haven't had any HET either?

Your company isn't necessarily wrong in what they have done and all the necessary mitigations may be in place (but they rely on local staff to manage and their experienced UK staff would know what to expect).

However, you are uncomfortable and panicked, and you haven't left the UK yet.

It doesn't sound as though this trip is for you. Write to HR stating you are unable to take the trip because of concerns regarding lack of HET; insurance; risk assessments; communication of emergency protocols in country, etc.

People who work overseas are often in situations that would seem unfathomable to people who work solely in the UK. I've travelled extensively as have my former colleagues. But people always need to keep within their own risk threshold when accepting overseas trips. Otherwise they can put themselves and others at risk either by panicking or by being reckless. You need to be honest about your capabilities as much as you're asking your employer to be honest about everything that is in place.

Thanks @MeandT (and lots of others), that list of qs was really helpful. HR actually rang me today and I went through them with them!

For the PP who asked, I haven't spoken to LM yet as she's not back til Friday.

I think some of my questions must have filtered through to the Mexico team, as I was forwarded an email from someone high up who said I categorically must not take taxis and she would look into options.

I know you bristled against a PP who said this job isn't for you but it isn't.

I haven't "bristled" at anyone @AnnesBrokenSlate. It's so strange how you get these kinds of posts putting down the OP whatever the thread topic is.

Nope I don't want to do a job that involves frequent unsafe travel and if this had been made clear to me at interview I would've picked one of my other options. This isn't something I'm defensive about, it's not a big deal to me.

There are lots of areas that the FCO doesn't recommend travelling to, but that people from the UK do travel to and work in. Trip decisions are made at short notice and necessary mitigations are put in place eg security/drivers/interpreters/collection from airport/secure compound offices or living or secure hotel accommodation, etc.

Yes - and if you had read my posts you would see that I was being asked to commit to a trip to an area where none of these mitigations had been put in place. I have been to areas such as this before, but either of the context of me planning it myself so being in control, or with work who had put appropriate measures in place and kept me in the loop.

No, not at all - I really don't have an ego in terms of wanting to seem adventurous or having crazy travel stories.

I'm not going to debate as to whether this situation is fine for anyone or not as it's completely subjective, but I suspect the vast majority of women would not be happy to go to an area the FCO advises against, with no mitigations in place and no control over the situation. As I said, it really doesn't matter to me where that puts me on the cautious to adventuerous scale.

Practically, I don't want to be in a situation where medical costs aren't covered, or I have personal items stolen and I can't claim it back, because the proper paperwork isn't in place. Why should I risk that for work? There's absolutely no protocol in place as to who would pay if I needed to be transported to a hospital from the remote region, for example. This could be something as innocous as tripping and breaking an ankle, that could just as easily happen in the UK, but you wouldn't be fucked over in terms of costs.

And thanks to everyone who referenced and asked - no HET/HEAT training suggested or offered (but I don't think that's suprising as nothing else has been!)

You don't know what is in place because you're struggling to get information. That's what you said in your posts. I've read all your posts.

You didn't mention whether there were secure compounds or not; or whether the local staff include trained security and drivers; or whether you'd had HET in your previous roles (or indeed in this one). Either you missed the detail in my post or you are in the position of not even knowing what to ask.

My points still stand. Put your concerns in writing. And don't go on the trip if you feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what your friend/sister or anyone else thinks about what is in place. What matters is that you're not comfortable and already feel it's unsafe before you have left the UK.

I've been on more than one work trip where a staff member returned home after one or two days because they weren't physically or mentally prepared. When you're working in high-risk areas, it's also not unknown for staff to refuse trips.

If this isn't a key component of your role then you refuse this part of the job. Even if it is a key component of your role, you still refuse if you feel at risk.

Ah, ok, I see you've now posted that you've not had HET training before either.

Well written, but utter crap.

Is this a one-off work trip, as you seem to describe, or a second regular working location at the company’s sister site? Your posting isn’t quite clear. Regardless, if you feel unsafe being asked to do something, you should escalate this without embarrassment. Your manager should take you and your concerns seriously, and if they can’t address them to your satisfaction then you should say no to the trip. If working regularly at a second site in Mexico is in the contract you signed, then you should consider looking for another job.

Risk assessments and overseas travel to very varied foreign locations is a regular part of my job, and my industry. Nothing is undertaken without a risk assessment - not even a job on a location in the U.K. (for example working outside in the countryside for a day). The junior person in the team (which you say you are) is NEVER responsible for doing the risk assessment. It is always the manager or person responsible for the team. They will (or should) have at least basic training for doing risk assessments. RAs are a real and important exercise in risk mitigation and signal to the team the protocols put in place for their safety. In my industry, the person doing the RA has a legal responsibility as well - if anything goes wrong, they are in the firing line. So RAs are not just a piece of pesky admin.

Please feel more confident in asking questions and seeking answeres about your safety and personal well being. You should not apologise or feel silly, ever. And you should not feel embarrassed or shamed into doing something you’re not happy with. If the company sends people to this location often enough, they should have things already in place and should have answers for you.

if this is the first time they have sent someone there, or the early establishment of a new working site, they need to take the views and concerns of their staff seriously as they make plans for the trip.

who is organising all your travel and accommodation? They should know more about all this too. Expecting you to just take taxis or get lifts with colleagues is not acceptable either, they need to organise - or help you organise - a clear and safe plan for commuting each day. Even if that is just providing you with all the local taxi numbers (it should actually be a lot more than this in an unsafe area, that would be the bare minimum for working in, say, Paris!)

Stand up for yourself, so not be embarrassed or feel silly, so not be fobbed off. How the company deals with your questions will tell you everything you need to know about them. If they don’t pass muster, don’t go on the trip and find another job.

good luck. Update us when you know more!

If you do end up losing your job over this, you might be able to claim unfair dismissal of the basis of discrimination if you can successfully argue that a male colleague wouldn't have been put in this situation as the specific dangers that you would be in on this trip stem from the fact that as a woman you would be perceived as more vulnerable and therefore more likely to be targeted. A man in the same scenario would be less vulnerable, and the discrimination was that they weren't putting any additional protection in place to mitigate that extra vulnerability and were therefore expecting you to take significantly more personal risk than a male colleague would have.

Don't know if that would work. I am not a lawyer
Hopefully you'll get this resolved without losing your job though!