Calories on the menu - just why?

[Figmentofmyimagination]

Visited pizza express last night to catch up with a girlfriend - first visit since pre pandemic. Ordered my favourite fiorentina pizza with spinach and egg but my enjoyment was somewhat diminished by reading the 950 calorie count on the menu. I understand that this is the law now. Who decided that this is a good idea? Absolutely crazy.

Wow lightisnotwhite it’s that easy!

Not.

You have no idea.

@LuckySantangelo35

You can be perfectly healthy while 'overweight'"

No you cannot be perfectly healthy whilst being overweight. Not sure what the “” are about. Being overweight is a health problem in itself and it predisposes you to others.

It’s this kind of denial that contributes to the huge problem we have in the Uk with obesity

The '' are about what you are basing your measurement on. If it is BMI, then '' is totally fitting as if you are overweight by BMI standards this can often say nothing about your actual health. There is a tonne of info on this if you're interested in why it's a flawed measurement - if you are talking about other ways of measuring weight, then I can agree with you to a point on that

@PurpleDaisies

No one “needs” to eat either.

What on earth are you talking about? Everyone needs to eat. It’s a basic requirement to remain alive.

😂 I think some on this thread genuinely believe this!!

Yes we do all definitely need to eat, we die pretty quickly if we don't.

Hence why anorexia has the highest mortality rate out of any mental illness.

The pp missed ‘out’ I’m pretty sure everyone knows we need to eat.

I’m with Patch on demystifying calories as energy but can see some face big issues with ED, although I’d go with the majority for public health actions.

@lightisnotwhite Anorexia is a mental illness about a need to control rather than food though. We could focus on the pressures young people feel to help them.

No. It is a biochemical illness with associated psychological symptoms due to a malnourished and depleted brain. It is triggered by weight loss. The weight loss can be caused by different things…physical illness, dieting, over exercising causing a significant calorie deficit, a need for control etc…but the actual illness of anorexia nervosa is biochemical.

@Alm0nd1

No a lot of kids are inactive and eat too many snacks and empty calories. Counting calories makes disordered eating worse. You instantly feel restricted and want more, so turn to diet snacks/ foods, feel hungry etc. A healthy relationship with food and a diet rich in fruit/ veg with 3 healthy meals a day, a couple of healthy snacks and getting off their screens and being more active is what most kids need to focus. Not a life of calorie counting abd restriction.

It's perfectly possible to eat within your recommended calorie range and not be overly restricted- this kind of thing is exactly the type of myth that should be dispelled. If it was taught in conjunction (as I said earlier) with other stuff about nutrition then it sets up a healthy approach to it. Adults who have an unhealthy approach to calories would have probably benefitted from it when younger to be honest.

[quote BigYellowTaxiT]**@lightisnotwhite* Anorexia is a mental illness about a need to control rather than food though. We could focus on the pressures young people feel to help them.*

No. It is a biochemical illness with associated psychological symptoms due to a malnourished and depleted brain. It is triggered by weight loss. The weight loss can be caused by different things…physical illness, dieting, over exercising causing a significant calorie deficit, a need for control etc…but the actual illness of anorexia nervosa is biochemical.[/quote]
Do you have a source for this? I look forward to some random research paper.

It’s perfectly possible to eat within your calorie recommended range and not count calories. Many do it and have a much healthier relationship with food too.

@Alm0nd1

It’s perfectly possible to eat within your calorie recommended range and not count calories. Many do it and have a much healthier relationship with food too.

And many don't. But regardless if you were already within calories having an awareness of them won't make much of a difference will it. Eating below your recommended calories is also bad so it might help some who inadvertently do this. Plenty of people are aware of calories and don't obsess or have an unhealthy obsession, not sure why there's an assumption this is the case.

@PurpleDaisies

You’re comfortable with eleven year olds making choices in restaurants based on calorie counting? I’m certainly not.

They don't need to continuously track calories to ensure an upper limit isn't breached - as many people do when they're dieting - but they do need to be able to look at a menu and notice that some dishes are grotesquely over-calorific. They need to be able to recognise that a dessert with 2000 calories is "too much", even as a one-off treat, so they can avoid them, or share them. And their parents need to be able to say things like "you can choose any main under 1000 calories and any dessert under 750 calories", to help them learn to make healthier choices.

It’s perfectly possible to eat within your calorie recommended range and not count calories.

For some. There were multiple anecdotes earlier this thread where people were saying how surprised they were about how many calories are in their slice of cake, or pizza. Many people can't eat intuitively, that's precisely why they need to calorie count in the first place.

No parents just need to feed them a balanced healthy diet normally and let them have what they like when out.

If you can’t eat intuitively you just focus on a healthy balanced diet. There is no need to count calories. You are far more likely to eat intuitively if not focused on restricting calories.

@Patchbatch You could try to be less patronising with your “I look forward to some random research paper” crap.

There is a lot of recent research looking into the genetic risk factors of eating disorders and how weight loss (for whatever reason) can trigger a biochemical / neurobiological response.

One important, large, study published in Nature Genetics (2019) looked at nearly 17,000 anorexia cases and identified eight genetic variants associated with the disorder. This study highlighted very clearly that anorexia nervosa isn’t just a mental illness. This has spurred on another huge study to further investigate the genetic and metabolic links that could help improve treatment. Like I said earlier, current treatment usually ends up with a weight restoration target set too low so true restoration and brain healing doesn’t occur so the patient remains in an anorexic state.

Then there is a study from 2016 in Translational Psychiatry, which reported on mice with a variant in a gene that in people is linked to anorexia. On its own, the variant didn’t seem to make much of a difference in mouse behaviour, but when the mice were given diets restricting calories by 20%–30% and then subjected to stress which included isolation, they stopped eating. This research suggests that it is a combination of genetic and environmental risk factors that drives susceptibility to anorexia. It also goes a little way to contributing to explaining why the incidence of eating disorders in children and adolescents has risen during the pandemic. Isolation, plus genetics, plus weight loss for whatever reason etc etc.

Then there is research by Joanna Steinglass (also 2016) in the Journal of Eating Disorders that showed differences in MRI brain scans of people with eating disorders and those without. In people with anorexia, MRI scans revealed that the region of the brain associated with selecting foods was the dorsal striatum, which is a key region involved in forming habits. In people without an eating disorder, a different brain region is associated with food choices. This research showed that many symptoms of eating disorders have a neurobiological basis and are not just psychological, as many seem to think.

In 2020 a study in European ED’s Review showed the presence of typical neurodevelopmental patterns in anorexic patients and that severity of emaciation is related to brain morphology reductions, highlighting the importance of true weight restoration.

Various studies have also shown that genes contribute more than 50% to 74% of AN developing risk. All of this research clearly points to genetic, neurobiological, biochemical and psychiatric elements to the illness. It is not simply a mental illness. That is outdated thinking.

Do a pubmed, CINALH etc database search and you’ll easily find the plethora of current research into this element.

You are far more likely to eat intuitively if not focused on restricting calories.

Any source for that?

@Alm0nd1

No parents just need to feed them a balanced healthy diet normally and let them have what they like when out.

If you can’t eat intuitively you just focus on a healthy balanced diet. There is no need to count calories. You are far more likely to eat intuitively if not focused on restricting calories.

So if all the unhealthily overweight people are not eating intuitively what are they doing?

My intuition is to eat anything that looks appetising. Knowing about calories (and other elements of a balanced diet) helps me to make healthy choices.

[quote BigYellowTaxiT]@Patchbatch You could try to be less patronising with your “I look forward to some random research paper” crap.

There is a lot of recent research looking into the genetic risk factors of eating disorders and how weight loss (for whatever reason) can trigger a biochemical / neurobiological response.

One important, large, study published in Nature Genetics (2019) looked at nearly 17,000 anorexia cases and identified eight genetic variants associated with the disorder. This study highlighted very clearly that anorexia nervosa isn’t just a mental illness. This has spurred on another huge study to further investigate the genetic and metabolic links that could help improve treatment. Like I said earlier, current treatment usually ends up with a weight restoration target set too low so true restoration and brain healing doesn’t occur so the patient remains in an anorexic state.

Then there is a study from 2016 in Translational Psychiatry, which reported on mice with a variant in a gene that in people is linked to anorexia. On its own, the variant didn’t seem to make much of a difference in mouse behaviour, but when the mice were given diets restricting calories by 20%–30% and then subjected to stress which included isolation, they stopped eating. This research suggests that it is a combination of genetic and environmental risk factors that drives susceptibility to anorexia. It also goes a little way to contributing to explaining why the incidence of eating disorders in children and adolescents has risen during the pandemic. Isolation, plus genetics, plus weight loss for whatever reason etc etc.

Then there is research by Joanna Steinglass (also 2016) in the Journal of Eating Disorders that showed differences in MRI brain scans of people with eating disorders and those without. In people with anorexia, MRI scans revealed that the region of the brain associated with selecting foods was the dorsal striatum, which is a key region involved in forming habits. In people without an eating disorder, a different brain region is associated with food choices. This research showed that many symptoms of eating disorders have a neurobiological basis and are not just psychological, as many seem to think.

In 2020 a study in European ED’s Review showed the presence of typical neurodevelopmental patterns in anorexic patients and that severity of emaciation is related to brain morphology reductions, highlighting the importance of true weight restoration.

Various studies have also shown that genes contribute more than 50% to 74% of AN developing risk. All of this research clearly points to genetic, neurobiological, biochemical and psychiatric elements to the illness. It is not simply a mental illness. That is outdated thinking.

Do a pubmed, CINALH etc database search and you’ll easily find the plethora of current research into this element.[/quote]
👏🏻

Thank you.

There is so little understanding on this, I honestly think most people have no understanding that all it takes for a child to develop anorexia is genetics plus weight loss.

If they did they would not push calorie counting on to children.

It's probably easier to believe it's a mental health condition that is the result of trauma or abuse because that means their children are immune to it....

No parents just need to feed them a balanced healthy diet normally and let them have what they like when out.

So the children (or rather their parents on their behalf) should be calorie counting, just not when eating out as a treat?

I don't think you understand the issue. You cannot eat a balanced healthy diet without first informing yourself what that is. Many people, and especially fat people, have not obtained that information from their parents, school, or society. They cannot rely on natural instinct to eat healthily. If they listen to their natural urges, or eat as they are used to, they will overeat. Counting calories, or Syns or whatever other form it is disguised in, is the simplest way to measure and thus control your intake.

You might say that giving conscious focus to your intake is not a healthy way to eat, it's not natural etc. Yes! That is true! Call it the lesser of two evils, then. I'm fine with a slightly unhealthy 'artificial' approach towards eating if it prevents a very unhealthy 'natural' approach.

Another fairly recent study (2019) in Clinical Nutrition looked at the structural brain changes seen in anorexic patients. The most common finding was gray and white matter reduction correlating with the extent of malnourishment and mostly reversible with recovery and weight restoration. This again indicates that brain function is impaired from weight loss, hence the continuation and increase in psychological symptoms, which make it very hard to treat.

There is so little understanding on this, I honestly think most people have no understanding that all it takes for a child to develop anorexia is genetics plus weight loss.

I don't think anyone is doubting this. But you are naturally focussed on a problem affecting your own family, and a relatively small number of others, and clearly unnapreciative of the much bigger problem of over-eating and the many factors which cause this. Having looked at the full picture, the Government has decided to ask large restaurant chains (with over 250 emoyees) to put calories on their menus. If you want to avoid them, you can, easily.

@Patchbatch

You are far more likely to eat intuitively if not focused on restricting calories.

Any source for that?

Common sense

You don’t need to count calories to inform yourself of what a healthy diet is. You just don’t.

And re just avoiding the chains do you not realise that is where teens hang out and what most town centres consist of. It’s Starbucks, Costa, Pret, Nando’s, Wagamama’s…. on a loop. To avoid these places teens would have no social life and the last thing an anorexic needs (recovering or not) is isolation.

You don’t need to count calories to inform yourself of what a healthy diet is. You just don’t.

Yes, you do. You just do. See how easy it is to just insist on things?

Obviously you don't have to calorie count in the moment. You can do lots of background reading and preparation and years of learning and experience about what portion sizes and ingredients suit your lifestyle, without having to calorie count one individual dish. Then you can eat with the appearance of natural intuition. Of course, it's not real - you're still calorie counting, you're just doing it on a more macro level and maybe without even knowing you're calorie counting.

Or, you could skip all that and just rely on counting the calories which the government has helpfully required to be displayed on all packaging and menus. It's easier, faster, doesn't require as much time or effort.

@shreakin

There is so little understanding on this, I honestly think most people have no understanding that all it takes for a child to develop anorexia is genetics plus weight loss.

I don't think anyone is doubting this. But you are naturally focussed on a problem affecting your own family, and a relatively small number of others, and clearly unnapreciative of the much bigger problem of over-eating and the many factors which cause this. Having looked at the full picture, the Government has decided to ask large restaurant chains (with over 250 emoyees) to put calories on their menus. If you want to avoid them, you can, easily.

No you can't.

I took my dd for a city break last week and trying to avoid calorie information was completely impossible.

I asked for calorie free menus in Frankie and Bennys and they looked at me like I had two heads.

You can't avoid it, it's everywhere.

Mandatory calorie free menus would be a small step in the right direction.

A previous poster suggested we just never eat out, that means absolutely no semblance of a normal life. No holidays, no days out, no hanging out with friends.

Social isolation is catastrophic for teens with anorexia, it's what triggered my dds illness in the first place.

If you eat 3 balanced meals high in fruit and veg a day whilst minimising crap and snacks alongside living a fairly active life you don’t need to count calories. Hoards of people don’t count calories and maintain a healthy weight.

I asked for calorie free menus in Frankie and Bennys and they looked at me like I had two heads.You can't avoid it, it's everywhere.

No, it's only in restaurant chains with more than 250 employees. Frankie and Benny's obviously falls into that category, but there are many places that don't.