To hope this very sad case stops them giving out abortion medication without scanning

[Greenmascara]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10711221/Baby-died-doctors-gave-30-week-pregnant-mother-abortion-pill-thinking-12-weeks.html

Extremely sad for mother and baby, mother is likely completely traumatised by this.

This isn't an anti abortion thread. Whilst never desirable, abortion needs to remain a safe, legal, NHS funded option so women aren't forced into buying illeagal/ dangerous pills online or having dangerous/ unsanitary abortions from backsttreet "doctors."

But I have been really, really concerned how at the start of covid, any safeguarding/ care in abortion went out the window. Pills posted out with no safeguarding concerns, and no scans to confirm pregnancy is within the legal limit.

Am I right in saying tragic, traumatic cases like this happen when you don't scan to check the gestation of pregnancy before handing out this medication ?

Again, I have to question why you are trying to frame this as ‘evil government cost cutting exercise’ when for YEARS medical groups have been urging the government to reform abortion delivery, including doing away with the 2 doctor requirement

Unless you are trying to suggest that the RCOG has somehow been in cahoots with government over ways of saving money

I’m shocked that so many women think this is ok. The story in the OP is horrific and should never have been allowed to happen. It doesn’t matter if it’s rare, lots of things are rare in a medical setting but that doesn’t stop professionals checking for them when necessary.

If there’s a problem it’s women being able to get early access to scans, then the answer is to increase the number of available appointments, not to drastically cut the quality of the service. This way there will be no incentive to increase support available for women.

Most women aren't taking drug during pregnancy, yet every women is asked about drug/ alcohol intake at booking to safeguard in the rare situations where this happens.

Yes you are asked about it. And they believe your answer. You’re not required to prove it.

I’m not sure of your point. This was nothing to do with not being seen or anything. It’s not to do with understanding. They could of killed the mother as well as the child. This is shocking incompetence on early level by the HOSPITAL STAFF that saw her and prescribed the medication. Inexcusable,

@SW1amp

Again, I have to question why you are trying to frame this as ‘evil government cost cutting exercise’ when for YEARS medical groups have been urging the government to reform abortion delivery, including doing away with the 2 doctor requirement

Unless you are trying to suggest that the RCOG has somehow been in cahoots with government over ways of saving money

@SW1amp I haven't once commented on the two doctor requirement; I have said that telemedicine and the lack of an automatic scan pit's women at a great risk of abuse and tragic outcomes, as proven in the linked cases.

Previously, vulnerable women could also have an implant, ( if they chose), fitted at an abortion consultation when they collected the pills to prevent them going through this trauma multiple times. Now they can't access that as standard. Yes, I think this is absolutely a cost cutting exercise , and women and girls suffer.

• every level

I had an abortion when I was younger. I was registered at a very large GP surgery. They have 9 GPs there.

I went in to ask for an abortion referral. I was told that none of the GPs in the practice would refer women for abortions. Doctor's can opt out of abortion care and referrals, and usually you would just have a different GP at your practice make the referral. But not one of the GPs at my surgery would do a referral for moral reasons.

It made getting an abortion much harder and traumatic than it should have been for me. And it took a lot longer. I had to go through BPAS, and travel down to england as scotland didnt have any BPAS clinics (they had the initial meeting clinic but no clinic which actually performed abortions).

So, instead of getting it done quickly when I was 10 weeks, it took until I was 16 weeks.

Being able to do it over the phone and have it posted would have been amazing. I hope they keep that service.

There’s more to this. The abortion pill isn’t licensed at 12 weeks. And the second example wouldn’t be avoided by scans as they were mail order.

Scans aren’t the solution. Scans were stopped because women couldn’t access and even pre covid couldn’t. It’s a really fine time line and scanning women pre 10
weeks slows it up further. Sadly errors happen. They’re rare but they happen. Saying you have to attend hospital for a scan makes as much sense as saying all women must give birth in a delivery suite.

I think the NHS has brought about its own demise with its ridiculously over-drawn response to Covid- after years of underfunding and the Tories will be whooping with delight and making plans to sell it off to American insurance.

This is awful. Scans should absolutely be carried out prior to an abortion to stop other women and their babies suffering like this.

Having access to these pills over the phone with no safeguarding checks will be exploited where there is abuse.

*Most women aren't taking drug during pregnancy, yet every women is asked about drug/ alcohol intake at booking to safeguard in the rare situations where this happens.

Most teacher's are not paedophiles, we still have DBS checks to weed out the minority that are.

Many safeguarding procedures occur despite the prevalence of offending being relatively rare.*

The removal of the need for in-person care is not the removal of safeguards. The actual bodies that deal with providing women’s medical care and protecting their rights have supported the continuation of telemedical abortion as a beneficial to women as a whole. As have, as another poster pointed out, Rape Crisis.

All have access to far more information as to the impact of it on women than any one poster one mumsnet. Obviously they’re all wrong though because greenmascara doesn’t like it.

Telemedical abortion in Northern Ireland would be a massive step forward for women who still have to travel to england as they still no access in NI.

I’m surprised at some of these responses. It could be dangerous for women to be given meds to terminate at home if they are at a much later gestation than they say/ think they are. Some vulnerable women would be under pressure to lie about dates in order to terminate. A scan should be a pre requisite.

@BobbinHood

Most women aren't taking drug during pregnancy, yet every women is asked about drug/ alcohol intake at booking to safeguard in the rare situations where this happens.

Yes you are asked about it. And they believe your answer. You’re not required to prove it.

And for countless procedures involving the prescription of controlled medication, you do have to prove it.

A doctor will not prescribe methadone without you proving you have tested positive for heroin via a drugs test. You cannot just walk into a drugs treatment centre and request methadone and refuse to be tested.

I was previously certain I had Bacterial Vaginosis, ( GP test later proved I did have it). The GP still wouldn't prescribe antibiotics until the swab test came back, despite me being certain I had it.

I can't access the contraceptive pill without providing blood pressure checks/ BMI. I can't just say I have no blood pressure issues and get a prescription sent out.

They won't prescribe iron pills for anaemia until a blood test comes back.

Bobbinhood what about this from maternitynamechange

I think its likely she knew she was exactly as pregnant as she was but for some reason could not face an abortion earlier or face to face at a facility in which case, it might have been exactly what she wanted. She obviously felt very desperate and utilised the options at her disposal, albeit illegally if she knowingly lied about dates (which is a whole other post)

really no grounds for saying this about this woman.

What a horrific story. I'm in two minds about this though. On the one hand, I'm generally anti anything that would make obtaining an abortion more difficult for any woman who needs one.

On the other hand, things can and do go wrong even in very early pregnancy that can be dangerous to the woman. For example, I had a very rare complication in my first pregnancy that caused huge numbers of cysts to grow rapidly in my womb (not a molar pregnancy, but a slightly similar type of situation. They're still not entirely sure what happened.) I'd intended to keep the pregnancy although my baby died, but I would have needed to know that information if I'd chosen to have an abortion too. It was not at all apparent that anything was wrong until I had the scan.

It's incredibly sad what happened to this woman and her baby but I expect this is extremely rare. It does concern me that women with complications like molar pregnancies might have an abortion and not realise that they have the condition. At the very least, women ought to be offered a scan when they have an abortion even if it happens afterwards, just to check that there are no complications.

I can't access the contraceptive pill without providing blood pressure checks/ BMI. I can't just say I have no blood pressure issues and get a prescription sent out.

Yes you can. A quick google will lead you to multiple (legal) sites that only require you to self report.

Research has been carried out and it’s been shown that scans aren’t necessary hoops for all women to jump through. Telemedical abortion has been demonstrated to be successful and shown to overwhelmingly benefit women, the positives outweighing the negatives of the old system. You not liking this fact doesn’t change it.

What is the law surrounding this? I understand that abortions can happen after 24 weeks under certain circumstances but there is no mention of there being a risk of life to the mother or any concerns about the baby.

It just feels so wrong that this can happen and there be no legal consequence?

* Plenty of women have irregular periods. How many women get to 30 weeks with no pregnancy symptoms, no movement and no bump? Not enough to warrant removing the remote provision that’s provided a much better service for many women over the last 2 years.*

^Completely agree with this. I’m glad MPs have voted to keep the new system in

Here’s the study:

obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1471-0528.16668

A telemedicine-hybrid model for medical abortion that includes no-test telemedicine and treatment without an ultrasound is effective, safe, acceptable and improves access to care.

This is rare and myself and my sister in law both had abortions in 2020 during lockdown. We got offered the postal pills but we was also offered to be seen in person. I was only 5 weeks along and was able to meet the nurse at the hospital outside at a safe distance and collect my pills and chat and ask questions.

My SIL was able to be scanned as she didn't know dates and she was too far along for pills so was able to have a surgical abortion.

It didn't just all stop during lockdown. It became a different choice and easier access for women depending on distance of abortion clinics.

This case highlighted sounds more like a series of failings that could have been avoided rather than the at home pills itself.

@whumpthereitis

I can't access the contraceptive pill without providing blood pressure checks/ BMI. I can't just say I have no blood pressure issues and get a prescription sent out.

Yes you can. A quick google will lead you to multiple (legal) sites that only require you to self report.

Research has been carried out and it’s been shown that scans aren’t necessary hoops for all women to jump through. Telemedical abortion has been demonstrated to be successful and shown to overwhelmingly benefit women, the positives outweighing the negatives of the old system. You not liking this fact doesn’t change it.

And the other positives are it’s much cheaper for the nhs …….no in person appt…….no scan ….and people are just lapping it up and saying it’s great when it’s just removing care not making things better for women 🤦‍♀️

@FairyCakeWings

I’m shocked that so many women think this is ok. The story in the OP is horrific and should never have been allowed to happen. It doesn’t matter if it’s rare, lots of things are rare in a medical setting but that doesn’t stop professionals checking for them when necessary.

If there’s a problem it’s women being able to get early access to scans, then the answer is to increase the number of available appointments, not to drastically cut the quality of the service. This way there will be no incentive to increase support available for women.

The idea that we're going to be able to suddenly fix the system so all women can get access to early scans, in the middle of a pandemic and a colossal NHS staffing crisis, and when there were problems even pre covid is completely and totally fanciful. It's not going to happen. There is a reason the relevant charities and professional bodies have come out in favour of retaining access to abortion pills at home without the need for a scan first. It's because they understand the climate they're operating in and aren't indulging themselves with the pretence that it's going to change any time soon.

@Lemonandlime123

What is the law surrounding this? I understand that abortions can happen after 24 weeks under certain circumstances but there is no mention of there being a risk of life to the mother or any concerns about the baby.

It just feels so wrong that this can happen and there be no legal consequence?

Who do you want arrested? The woman who thought she was 12 weeks along? Or the doctors who gave her the medication?

One of the tests a criminal proceeding must meet is it must be in the public interest. Which arrest would be in the public interest?

Look, it is rare, but some women do bleed throughout pregnancy. Dont develop a bump until very late. Dont feel much movement either than 'bubbles'. If she still bled then stopped, and dated it from that point then she could easily believe she was 12 weeks.

So @Greenmascara what is your experience/involvement with this that makes you more qualified than pretty much every women’s organisation on this topic?

Because when everyone actually working on the frontline is in unified agreement on this, you surely have to question if you’re just wrong..?