To hope this very sad case stops them giving out abortion medication without scanning

[Greenmascara]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10711221/Baby-died-doctors-gave-30-week-pregnant-mother-abortion-pill-thinking-12-weeks.html

Extremely sad for mother and baby, mother is likely completely traumatised by this.

This isn't an anti abortion thread. Whilst never desirable, abortion needs to remain a safe, legal, NHS funded option so women aren't forced into buying illeagal/ dangerous pills online or having dangerous/ unsanitary abortions from backsttreet "doctors."

But I have been really, really concerned how at the start of covid, any safeguarding/ care in abortion went out the window. Pills posted out with no safeguarding concerns, and no scans to confirm pregnancy is within the legal limit.

Am I right in saying tragic, traumatic cases like this happen when you don't scan to check the gestation of pregnancy before handing out this medication ?

I agree OP, poor baby. Absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting that it was allowed to happen. 😟

@ThatsALotOfPassionfruit

If you are scanned in the event of requesting an abortion, is the screen turned away and the sound off? Because I could imagine it could be very distressing to see and hear a baby you are planning on aborting (for whatever reason).

I was scanned prior to a surgical abortion, the screen was turned away.

I agree OP. I’m pro choice and believe access to safe, early abortions should be made as easy as possible. But this doesn’t extend to risking situations like this one happening.

Babies are born at 30 weeks and under all the time. There’s no question that they can suffer experience pain. And imagine being that poor woman having to live with those memories forever.

A scan to date a pregnancy before an abortion should be required every time.

@CavernousScream

I can’t see how this has anything to do with telemedicine, when the entire incident happened in a hospital. She was terminating for medical reasons, she may have been eligible for abortion even if they’d known she was 30 weeks. There were obvious failings in care at the hospital, but that is not an argument against telemedicine which reduces the amount of people needing care in a hospital.

I don't get the link either. I think the telemedicine abortions are a good thing, the majority of people will be aware they are pregnant and have a rough idea of how far along. There is a full consultation prior to receiving the abortion pills, if there's any confusion, I'm sure the medical professionals would recommend a scan in a clinic and not send the pills.

I agree OP, the answer to low staffing and poor services is not to lower the bar even further, increasing risks in turn to women from low quality service.

That poor baby.

I notice how quality some posters are to turn around and blame the woman, to think that she must have been lying, that it must have been her fault. Sounds a bit familiar to be honest. Regardless its not her fault she fell through a gap in an underfunded and understaffed service, which cut corners and caused harm.

@ThatsALotOfPassionfruit

If you are scanned in the event of requesting an abortion, is the screen turned away and the sound off? Because I could imagine it could be very distressing to see and hear a baby you are planning on aborting (for whatever reason).

Yes they do turn it away

I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see the scan that would be bad enough and then I think I literally cannot comprehend the utter pain and heartbreak of this poor woman having to experience seeing her baby born at 30 weeks and then dying 😢

@myyellowcar

I agree OP, the answer to low staffing and poor services is not to lower the bar even further, increasing risks in turn to women from low quality service.

That poor baby.

I notice how quality some posters are to turn around and blame the woman, to think that she must have been lying, that it must have been her fault. Sounds a bit familiar to be honest. Regardless its not her fault she fell through a gap in an underfunded and understaffed service, which cut corners and caused harm.

Yes exactly.

And even if she was lying about the dates, ( and I have no reason to believe she was), that is the act of someone who is very vulnerable and distressed and needs care and attention; not a botched 30 week abortion in a hospital toilet.

Do 2 doctors still have to sign off abortion ?

This is a total failure on the part of the hospital to provide an appropriate service and level of care. That poor woman must have been completely traumatised. Hopefully they will ensure it doesn't happen again.

@myyellowcar

I agree OP, the answer to low staffing and poor services is not to lower the bar even further, increasing risks in turn to women from low quality service.

That poor baby.

I notice how quality some posters are to turn around and blame the woman, to think that she must have been lying, that it must have been her fault. Sounds a bit familiar to be honest. Regardless its not her fault she fell through a gap in an underfunded and understaffed service, which cut corners and caused harm.

I agree it’s not her fault. But she didn’t fall through the cracks of a telemedicine system. She was seen at hospital, given the medication and took it at hospital, and then gave birth in the hospital. The article says she was either not scanned, or scanned poorly. But if she wasn’t scanned, it wasn’t so that they didn’t have to book a face to face appointment with her, as they had that anyway. So, for whatever reason, she wasn’t having the pills remotely - maybe she had already been ruled out as not suitable, I’ve no idea. From the article it does sound like understaffing was an issue, but this example is nothing to do with a failure of telemedicine.

My friend had a termination recently and they wouldn’t do anything until they could accurately date the pregnancy. She had to have two scans two weeks apart because at the first they couldn’t see a foetal pole and they didn’t want to put her through the trauma of an abortion if she was going to miscarry anyway.

So, I imagine this is extremely rare.

Oh dear. Yet another attempt to erode women's rights and autonomy over their own bodies.

Having the option to take this medication without examination is not ideal, but it is the best the NHS can manage at the moment.

The problem with your hypothetical arguments is that none NONE of the charities and organisations dealing with the people who would be victims in these cases agree with you.

Take a look at the list of charities that signed the letter to government to maintain the pills by post services
It’s Womens Aid, Refuge, countless medical Royal colleges, Rape crisis centres

They all deal with the actual reality of victims of coercion and abuse and all the other what-abouteries that you listed

And if they all think pills by post are a good idea, I’m more inclined to agree with them than someone who can only find a couple of Daily Mail articles to back up their case…

@chisanunian

Oh dear. Yet another attempt to erode women's rights and autonomy over their own bodies.

Having the option to take this medication without examination is not ideal, but it is the best the NHS can manage at the moment.

How on earth is the situation, ( and the absolute trauma put on the woman due to a failure in medical care), a victory for women's rights ?

Women were always scanned before obtaining treatment and there was never an issue clearly a lot of people on here wasn't even aware. The scans take place at clinics where you also collect the medication. Ectopic or molar pregnancies could also be picked up and referred to the EPU/NHS. There were no staff shortages there wasn't any issues. You don't go ahead with a pregnancy without dating it with a scan how is this any different? I recently found out about this posting out treatment with no scan what's to say a person who decided they didn't like the sex of their baby etc at a later stage wouldn't obtain the medicine by just claiming to have a younger pregnancy? By stopping scans surely its just opening it up to deceit and tragedies like the 2 mentioned on here. Having a scan first does not make it harder to obtain abortion medication it makes sure it's a safeguarded practice for all women along with having finger prick bloods and being offered sti testing. Agree with someone up thread who said this is not the solution to an easier accessible service the answer is more clinics available.

This is a particularly sad case for this woman, however I do think abortions should remain available over the phone.

I was pregnant by my stepfather at 12 years old. He couldn't access abortion pills so made me drink a bottle of sherry and gave me an abortion with some home made devices. Sadly this isn't an uncommon story. I have spoken to many like me who had abortions forced on them, some of those women are infertile and have health conditions due to it. It's obviously not a great place to be even to have pills forced on you, but given the alternative I would much rather have had them.

As an adult I was raped and pregnant, totally on my own in a new area with my dc. I had no way to get an abortion, 6 months later I had more choices, but I had the child, and am raising that child without a father. I didn't feel as though I had a choice.

My partner and I split recently and I found I was pregnant, I was able to access abortion pills easily and have an abortion at home.

There are always going to be tragic cases with medical things, but I think the benefits for the vast majority far outweigh the bad in this instance.

@Vie8126

Women were always scanned before obtaining treatment and there was never an issue clearly a lot of people on here wasn't even aware. The scans take place at clinics where you also collect the medication. Ectopic or molar pregnancies could also be picked up and referred to the EPU/NHS. There were no staff shortages there wasn't any issues. You don't go ahead with a pregnancy without dating it with a scan how is this any different? I recently found out about this posting out treatment with no scan what's to say a person who decided they didn't like the sex of their baby etc at a later stage wouldn't obtain the medicine by just claiming to have a younger pregnancy? By stopping scans surely its just opening it up to deceit and tragedies like the 2 mentioned on here. Having a scan first does not make it harder to obtain abortion medication it makes sure it's a safeguarded practice for all women along with having finger prick bloods and being offered sti testing. Agree with someone up thread who said this is not the solution to an easier accessible service the answer is more clinics available.

Exactly. I think the government has used covid as the perfect excuse to cut funding to tis particular branch of women's healthcare despite the extreme risk/ distress it can cause. Feminist groups should be fighting this, but seem to have somehow been gaslit into thinking this is a "win" for women's rights.

How on earth is the situation, ( and the absolute trauma put on the woman due to a failure in medical care), a victory for women's rights

Yes, because fuck the vast majority of women accessing this service that benefit from it. They’re irrelevant

I notice how quality some posters are to turn around and blame the woman, to think that she must have been lying, that it must have been her fault. It was only really the OP suggesting that women might use the lack of scans to lie to obtain an illegal late term abortion.

There were no staff shortages there wasn't any issues.
That’s bollocks.

I think this would be a very rare case.
The vast majority of women would know roughly how many weeks pregnant they are.
I support making abortion more accessible for everybody.

I had a scan when I went to BPAS but can't remember if I was offered it or if it was just part of the process- I was definitely asked if i wanted to see the images or not though. Its made the papers because its very rare.

@BobbinHood

I notice how quality some posters are to turn around and blame the woman, to think that she must have been lying, that it must have been her fault. It was only really the OP suggesting that women might use the lack of scans to lie to obtain an illegal late term abortion.

I never suggested the women was lying, and made it completely clear it was the hospital/ abortion without scanning process I blamed.

I never suggested the women was lying, and made it completely clear it was the hospital/ abortion without scanning process I blamed.

Not this specific woman, but it was you who suggested women in general might use the lack of scans as a loophole to lie and obtain late term abortions. Even though that’s completely irrelevant in this case where the woman was in hospital.

@whumpthereitis

How on earth is the situation, ( and the absolute trauma put on the woman due to a failure in medical care), a victory for women's rights

Yes, because fuck the vast majority of women accessing this service that benefit from it. They’re irrelevant

Most women aren't taking drug during pregnancy, yet every women is asked about drug/ alcohol intake at booking to safeguard in the rare situations where this happens.

Most teacher's are not paedophiles, we still have DBS checks to weed out the minority that are.

Many safeguarding procedures occur despite the prevalence of offending being relatively rare.