To hope this very sad case stops them giving out abortion medication without scanning

[Greenmascara]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10711221/Baby-died-doctors-gave-30-week-pregnant-mother-abortion-pill-thinking-12-weeks.html

Extremely sad for mother and baby, mother is likely completely traumatised by this.

This isn't an anti abortion thread. Whilst never desirable, abortion needs to remain a safe, legal, NHS funded option so women aren't forced into buying illeagal/ dangerous pills online or having dangerous/ unsanitary abortions from backsttreet "doctors."

But I have been really, really concerned how at the start of covid, any safeguarding/ care in abortion went out the window. Pills posted out with no safeguarding concerns, and no scans to confirm pregnancy is within the legal limit.

Am I right in saying tragic, traumatic cases like this happen when you don't scan to check the gestation of pregnancy before handing out this medication ?

Thiis here to,stay. These tragic cases won't change anything. The decision has already been made.

Saying it’s rare or unusual is not acceptable as this could have been prevented.

By that logic women shouldn’t be able to access many medications without a scan because in rare circumstances they can cause harms to an unborn child. But we take women’s word for it about their own bodies, because they’re competent adults.

Prior to covid there absolutely were problems accessing abortion services. It would be much worse now if these requirements were reinstated.

@Maternitynamechange well, exactly. I struggle to see how she confused 12 and 30 weeks pregnant as they’re rather different

@Greenmascara

Exactly *@Piper22*.

My concerns with that are:

1. As the need for scans have been dispensed with, BPAS et al do not seem bothered about identifying ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy or pregnancies over the 10 week limit for home abortion, causing a very significant risk to the health/ safety of vulnerable women.

2. No check the person obtaining medication is actually pregnant at all, and is not obtaining the medication to either administer by stealth or force/ coerce/ pressure a vulnerable person, ( often child), into taking.

3. The ease this gives for abusive parents, families, partners, ex-partners to bully women into abortion; the provider has no idea whether the women has someone in the room with her during a telephone consultation preventing her from talking freely.

4. The ease at which this system allows the mass cover up of trafficking and the abuse of underage girls , women wit mental health problems, learning disabilities etc.

Brian might quite like having sex with his learning disabled neighbour Linda, but knows he may get arrested for abuse if this becomes public knowledge due to the extent of Linda's learning disability/ lack of capacity. If Linda has to visit BPAS face to face, some serious questions about who got her pregnant would be asked and she would likely be safeguarded. But now pills by post exist, Brian can get his girlfriend Louise, ( whom he also abuses), to ring BPAS and request pills by post for herself. Regardless as to whether Linda is past the 10 week gestation or has other medical conditions that make this completely unsuitable for her.

Your example can be countered by a different scenario, young woman in an abusive and controlling relationship where her boyfriend won't let her go to a doctor or seek an abortion because he knows if she has a baby with him she'll be tied to him forever.

@Piper22

I agree OP. I also entirely support abortion but this is not a safe option for women or babies. This baby must have died an awful death. Very sad for the baby’s mother

Heartbreaking for all concerned

I don’t see why there can’t be more centres , better access, fast track appts and scans and appropriate treatment for women . I don’t think many relapse how backing a system like this isn’t upholding the rights of women or bodily autonomy as it’s not accessing safe care. Women deserve better than this and should be asking for more - more centres where they can SAFELY access the service they need not being given medication that may be unsuitable at best, dangerous at worst

Not scanning is a dangerous corner to cut.

Women should be given better treatment than what’s on offer.

Relapse-realise

Sounds to me like a desperate woman who wanted to end a pregnancy regardless of the stage it was at.

As someone who lost a very desperately wanted baby at 26 weeks, I find it unfathomable that someone claims to be 12 weeks and are actually 30 weeks. That poor poor baby

@Greenmascara actually, many sexual health clinics will give you antibiotics if you say a contact tested positive for stis, without ever testing positive yourself. I took a whole course for chlamydia I didn't have.

@savehannah, so in your example, her boyfriend is so controlling he won't let her out the house for one afternoon, even if she makes an excuse, to visit an abortion service, but he will be fine with abortion pills being delivered through the post to her ?

Compelling evidence from 52,142 women shows no-test telemedicine abortion is safe, effective and improves care.

obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1471-0528.16668

These are undoubtedly sad cases but we have to trust women; they know their bodies and they know whether they want to continue with a pregnancy or not. I disagree with this whole "you have to convince two doctors it will be detrimental to your mental health", if I don't want to be pregnant why do I need to convince you of anything? I think this legislation democratizes abortion and that's a good thing. I also think it is wrong to assume that women will have late term abortions with this pill, I think most women who don't want a baby would abort as early as possible. Late term means giving birth to a dead mostly formed baby, which is horrendous, physically and emotionally.

We can't play into the right wing rhetoric that women are out killing babies to spite men. Exceptions to all rules exist of course, like the ones mentioned in your posts, but it shouldn't overrule the greatest good for the greatest number. No where in men's healthcare is something so exceptionally controlled.

But @LangClegsInSpace, the people answering that survey are not going to be:
a) those who have obtained medication to have an abortion over the legal 24 week limit,
B) Those who have illegally obtained medication to administer by stealth/ force/ pressure someone else to take.

@Greenmascara He wouldn’t necessarily know. The arrive in blank packaging.

@SpinningMeSoftly

This has nothing to do with abortion law in the UK and everything to do with a shortage of staffing, overworked staff, and poor oversight and management and care of women who are are pregnant - as we see over and over again.

Scans not carried out. Tick.

Other tests not carried out. Tick.

Inappropriate medication given out while other care withheld. Tick.

Safeguarding basics not undertaken. Tick.

Woeful management. Tick.

If this story is accurate, there was/is an absolutely dreadful state of affairs in that ward.

This. This. This. This.

Nothing to do with women accessing abortions, protocol needs amending and staffing needs increasing.

It's not a survey it's a cohort study comparing outcomes of the old system and the new telemedical system.

@Greenmascara

But *@LangClegsInSpace, the people answering that survey are not* going to be: a) those who have obtained medication to have an abortion over the legal 24 week limit, B) Those who have illegally obtained medication to administer by stealth/ force/ pressure someone else to take.

Yes, funnily enough. The vast majority of women who access these pills do so legally. It’s unreasonable to tailor law to the extreme outliers who can find a way around it regardless.

Also, when the pills comes through the post they don’t come in packaging that advertises what they are.

[quote Maternitynamechange]@Greenmascara He wouldn’t necessarily know. The arrive in blank packaging.[/quote]
But surely someone so controlling he won't allow his girlfriend to leave the house for a single morning will be monitoring her post ?

@Greenmascara

But *@LangClegsInSpace, the people answering that survey are not* going to be: a) those who have obtained medication to have an abortion over the legal 24 week limit, B) Those who have illegally obtained medication to administer by stealth/ force/ pressure someone else to take.

There is no evidence either of these things are happening at any scale. There is evidence the previous system was leading to many women having later abortions than they would have wanted.

If you are scanned in the event of requesting an abortion, is the screen turned away and the sound off? Because I could imagine it could be very distressing to see and hear a baby you are planning on aborting (for whatever reason).

I can’t see how this has anything to do with telemedicine, when the entire incident happened in a hospital. She was terminating for medical reasons, she may have been eligible for abortion even if they’d known she was 30 weeks. There were obvious failings in care at the hospital, but that is not an argument against telemedicine which reduces the amount of people needing care in a hospital.

So are women not scanned? What stops them from lying about how due they are normally?

Assuming he’s the one picking it up.

These pills have been sent by reproductive groups for years to women living in countries where abortion is illegal. They absolutely do provide an essential service to women who otherwise wouldn’t be able to access it safely.

Poor baby!
I just read that link - absolutely disgusting.

@ThatsALotOfPassionfruit

If you are scanned in the event of requesting an abortion, is the screen turned away and the sound off? Because I could imagine it could be very distressing to see and hear a baby you are planning on aborting (for whatever reason).

Yes, or it used to be. They tilt the screen away, or did when I had one in a clinic.