To hope this very sad case stops them giving out abortion medication without scanning

[Greenmascara]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10711221/Baby-died-doctors-gave-30-week-pregnant-mother-abortion-pill-thinking-12-weeks.html

Extremely sad for mother and baby, mother is likely completely traumatised by this.

This isn't an anti abortion thread. Whilst never desirable, abortion needs to remain a safe, legal, NHS funded option so women aren't forced into buying illeagal/ dangerous pills online or having dangerous/ unsanitary abortions from backsttreet "doctors."

But I have been really, really concerned how at the start of covid, any safeguarding/ care in abortion went out the window. Pills posted out with no safeguarding concerns, and no scans to confirm pregnancy is within the legal limit.

Am I right in saying tragic, traumatic cases like this happen when you don't scan to check the gestation of pregnancy before handing out this medication ?

Because @Wannakisstheteacher, it was born and lived for four days, (unsurprisingly, as 90% of babies born at this gestation survive), and I'm not sure what else I can refer to it as ? I cannot refer to it as a foetus, as it lived for four days independently. Genuinely, what should I refer to it as ? And I am normally the first to agree that referring to embryos/ foetus as "babies," in the context of termination is rude and hurtful.

As it stands, I believe the women is telling the truth.

But, even if she wasn't, how is giving birth alone in a hospital toilet, watching hospital staff rush in and attempt resuscitation and watching the baby live for four days considered to be the best, least trauma inducing outcome for the mother ?

@Stompythedinosaur

No, women should not be forced to have a scan in order to exercise their right of body autonomy.

A scan is used to date the pregnancy and prescribe the right treatment for an abortion.

I went to a consultation but didn't go through with an abortion for other reasons. The monitor is absolutely not shown to you. Yes, fpr your own sake, your HCP needs to know the gestation.

Because you are making it sound like she lost a much longed for child. She wanted an abortion. She took the tablets and the foetus died - normally that happens pre birth, but not actually always - but you are trying to make out that the resulting dead baby would have been a shock.

@Wannakisstheteacher

Because you are making it sound like she lost a much longed for child. She wanted an abortion. She took the tablets and the foetus died - normally that happens pre birth, but not actually always - but you are trying to make out that the resulting dead baby would have been a shock.

They named the baby, so I think it's fair to say this isn't the outcome the parents wanted.

Exactly @onreee. I had a 12 week scan recently, the sonographer said to me she wasn't going to turn the viewing screen on until she had found the heartbeatt/ baby was well. Presumably in the case of a termination scan, they wouldn't turn this on at all, ( unless the patient requested it).

There's a difference between thinking the pregnancy needs to b dated via ultrasound before medication is given out, and the women should be forced to view images she doesn't want to.

NC for this.

I went through this. They didn't scan me.

I ended up losing 4 litres of blood and nearly dead, apparently the periods I thought I was having was in fact bleeding from a sub chronic hematoma. (Blood clot attached to placenta)

Baby was 16 weeks and they said he was absolutely fine.

5 weeks later I gave birth to a 21 week old baby that was severely deformed and I passed away in theatre for 6 minutes.
The misoprostal can cause deformities.

They would have picked this up at the anomaly scan scheduled the day after he was born and it would have ended in termination anyway.

It's so sad

@Wannakisstheteacher

Because you are making it sound like she lost a much longed for child. She wanted an abortion. She took the tablets and the foetus died - normally that happens pre birth, but not actually always - but you are trying to make out that the resulting dead baby would have been a shock.

I have to say, @Wannakisstheteacher, you don't exactly sound dripping with compassion for the mother in this case.

You think the baby being resuscitated on the toilet floor in front of her snd living in NICU for four days when she was expecting the termination of a 12 week pregnancy might not have come as a shock to her ?

Precisely!

@Greenmascara

Furthermore, *@SW1amp*, a 12 week foetus measures approx. 5.7 cm, and a 30 week foetus measures approx. 38 cm; so I think we can be pretty sure a scan wasn't carried out in this particular case, as that's well, quite a big difference for a sonographer to miss.

Oh well if you can be sure, maybe you should speak to the coroner doing the inquest, who has said no such thing

But brilliant that we can now add ‘coroner’ and ‘sonographer’ to the list of things you are an expert at, along with DV support worker, obstetrician, Rape crisis support worker, psychologist, GP, nurse…

Apropos nothing, have you looked at the definition of narcissist at all..?

@onreee what do you imagine they thought happened with an abortion? You don’t have an abortion with the expectation of bringing home a live baby surely?

@SW1amp the fact you are calling me narcissist for not wanting women to suffer as in the above case is hilarious. Try investing in a dictionary. And I must have missed the bit where you were given a copy of the coroner's report.

@onreee

Any baby born after 24 weeks, including terminations, have to have a death certificate and that requires a name

So the parents would have had to provide a name, it doesn’t automatically mean this was a longed for baby
Of course it probably wasn’t the way they wished the pregnancy to end, potentially including needing to name him

[quote Wannakisstheteacher]@onreee what do you imagine they thought happened with an abortion? You don’t have an abortion with the expectation of bringing home a live baby surely?[/quote]

You really don't get it? I find it hard to believe.

She thought she was 12 weeks and getting a standard procedure, instead she birthed a fully formed 30 week fetus, who she and her partner then named. It doesn't sound like that's what she wanted. Most people - even if they didn't want a baby- would rather keep than abort a 3rd trimester fetus

[quote Wannakisstheteacher]@onreee what do you imagine they thought happened with an abortion? You don’t have an abortion with the expectation of bringing home a live baby surely?[/quote]
And for the last time @Wannakisstheteacher, most people don't have a 12 week termination and expect the baby to be born at 30 weeks, resuscitated on the toilet floor in front of them and sent to NICU for four days whilst doctor' try to save it That would have been traumatic for the women, and avoided if a scan had been given . How many women seeking a 12 week termination expect this to be the outcome ?

[quote Greenmascara]@SW1amp the fact you are calling me narcissist for not wanting women to suffer as in the above case is hilarious. Try investing in a dictionary. And I must have missed the bit where you were given a copy of the coroner's report.[/quote]
You are a self appointed expert of everything

And have come out with some light-bendingly stupid reasons why we should discount the views of actual experts (“didn’t they once think the Earth was flat” being my particular favourite for showing how erm un-expert you are)

A very very overblown opinion of your own expertise is a very common indicator of narcissism. I’m probably not the only person on this thread putting 2 and 2 together…

I don't think women should be forced to have a scan before being allowed to abort. But for any women with unreliable cycles, or those just wanting to check, then a scan should be an option. But most women know their bodies and their cycles well. They should be believed. There is no need to put additional hurdles in front of every woman because a tiny few either lie or guess wrong.

@SW1amp I assume you then are an expert in DV, Rape victim support ? You work in the field, ( I bloody hope not !) Oh wait.....maybe you don't have any more expertise than anyone else posting on this thread. No, not everyone who disagrees with you has narcissistic personality disorder

@Greenmascara. Sigh. Yes, the actual experience was (possibly) different to expectations. But ultimately she didn’t want a baby and got the outcome she wanted. I’m not going to get incredibly worked up about the death of an unwanted baby. I really hope the baby didn’t suffer too much, but fundamentally if a woman isn’t sure the difference between being 12 weeks and 30 weeks pregnant when having an abortion done responsibly needs to lie with her.

In fact @SW1amp, here is an example of you disbelieving rape victims.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/a4377161-Female-students-are-being-injected-now-with-date-rape-drugs-in-nightclubs?msgid=111785303#111785303

So the fact you'd call other women narcissistic for being concerned for rape victims beggers belief.

[quote Wannakisstheteacher]@Greenmascara. Sigh. Yes, the actual experience was (possibly) different to expectations. But ultimately she didn’t want a baby and got the outcome she wanted. I’m not going to get incredibly worked up about the death of an unwanted baby. I really hope the baby didn’t suffer too much, but fundamentally if a woman isn’t sure the difference between being 12 weeks and 30 weeks pregnant when having an abortion done responsibly needs to lie with her.[/quote]
Wow. Again, she probably didn't expect to give birth to a 30 weeker, and probably wanted him survive after realising (even if she still didn't want him). It's s possible to support the right to choose and still have compassion for what ended up being a baby who was born early and died.

Of course, given your previous posts, I'd be keen to hear how you have so much more expertise to help rape/ DV victims than myself or any other poster that disagrees with you.

@onreee I'm beginning to think @Wannakisstheteacher and @SW1amp are actively trying to upset people with their posts.

@Greenmascara

In fact *@SW1amp*, here is an example of you disbelieving rape victims. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/a4377161-Female-students-are-being-injected-now-with-date-rape-drugs-in-nightclubs?msgid=111785303#111785303

So the fact you'd call other women narcissistic for being concerned for rape victims beggers belief.

Oh, those cases that were proven to have not happened and the police acknowledged their investigations showed the alleged incidents hadn’t occurred

Sure, you detail the thread with those…

If anything shows you know you’re in the wrong, but you knock yourself out

[quote Greenmascara]**@onreee* I'm beginning to think @Wannakisstheteacher and @SW1amp* are actively trying to upset people with their posts.[/quote]
Hoping it's a wind-up, because aint no way-

😑

And as your reading comprehension seems incredibly poor, I’ll repeat it

It’s not about me having expertise in all those areas. But I’m willing to bet the thousands of people working in those fields via all the organisations signed up to tjr various open letters know their stuff

And they all think you are wrong. They all want telemedicine to continue

Im not claiming to be an expert. Im just fully backing them as being right

Which means by default, you are wrong.

Again… in one corner, every Royal College working in sexual health, pregnancy, reproduction
Every charity working with DV and Rape victims, many charities working with immigrants, low income families
All of them ALL of them saying the evidence says telemedicine should continue because it helps women, and especially vulnerable women

In the blue corner - you. Can barely string a coherent sentence together and can’t make a case that doesn’t require a daily Mail article as it’s basis

So yeah, as long as you keep trying to claim your opinion is equal to all those lobbying to keep it, I’ll strongly suspect you are narcissistic or delusional