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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope this very sad case stops them giving out abortion medication without scanning

306 replies

Greenmascara · 12/04/2022 18:05

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10711221/Baby-died-doctors-gave-30-week-pregnant-mother-abortion-pill-thinking-12-weeks.html

Extremely sad for mother and baby, mother is likely completely traumatised by this.

This isn't an anti abortion thread. Whilst never desirable, abortion needs to remain a safe, legal, NHS funded option so women aren't forced into buying illeagal/ dangerous pills online or having dangerous/ unsanitary abortions from backsttreet "doctors."

But I have been really, really concerned how at the start of covid, any safeguarding/ care in abortion went out the window. Pills posted out with no safeguarding concerns, and no scans to confirm pregnancy is within the legal limit.

Am I right in saying tragic, traumatic cases like this happen when you don't scan to check the gestation of pregnancy before handing out this medication ?

OP posts:
LoveMyPiano · 12/04/2022 22:33

Even if they scan, they can get it wrong.
They wanted to tell me the pregnancy was a "blighted ovum" - but being the nosey parker I am, I had already seen on the paperwork where the box for heartbeat detected had been ticked.
I had to point it out to the "Doctor"; wrong on all counts.

Gizacluethen · 12/04/2022 22:35

I think duty of car to the mother and baby means you make sure a pregnancy is within legal limits before abortions. The poor baby must have suffered greatly and I can't imagine how the mother must feel.

Terfydactyl · 12/04/2022 22:35

@ThatsALotOfPassionfruit

If you are scanned in the event of requesting an abortion, is the screen turned away and the sound off? Because I could imagine it could be very distressing to see and hear a baby you are planning on aborting (for whatever reason).
Yes, well out of your sight. Hardest thing I ever did, but still it was the right thing. All in took a week from realising to the procedure. And I was lucky, if I had realised later, if it had taken a few extra days to get an appointment it could have been so much worse. I also had to take time off work, get two drs to agree, etc etc. The current system whilst evidently not perfect, is better than I had a few years ago.
HulaTheHedgehog · 12/04/2022 22:40

@Piper22

I agree OP. I also entirely support abortion but this is not a safe option for women or babies. This baby must have died an awful death. Very sad for the baby’s mother
This 100%. Nothing more to be said.

What a horrific thing to happen. YANBU @Greenmascara

user1487194234 · 12/04/2022 22:40

For the vast majority the system is hugely beneficial to the woman

whumpthereitis · 12/04/2022 22:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45007707.amp

Oh, and here’s some more stats. Pre telemedical abortion approximately 10,000 sets of abortion pills were seized en route to British addresses. Information provided by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency. Wonder how many got through?

Women clearly access these pills if they have no other choice. With telemedical abortion being a legal option there are safeguards in place. Not having a scan is not the same as a complete removal of safeguards.

What you’re actually advocating for is a return to a system that saw thousands of women turn to completely unregulated alternatives.

whynotwhatknot · 12/04/2022 22:49

I had an abortion at 12 weeks i wasnt scanned although this wasnt recently

didnt realise it was a reuirement

PlasticsFantastic · 12/04/2022 22:53

This is horrific, poor baby

Cuck00soup · 12/04/2022 22:57

@tomatorich112

It has to be a rare event, most women had an idea about how pregnant they are (roughly) most women have symptoms at 30 weeks.

If she was unsure about dates she could have requested a scan. It's very sad but I'm sure it's v,v rare and sadly in medicine these things happen.

This. There are a vanishingly small number of women who reach 30 weeks pregnancy without knowing. Supporting women to access an early abortion, when that is the right decision for them will lead to fewer late term abortions. Not more.

Terfydactyl · 12/04/2022 22:58

@Vie8126

Women were always scanned before obtaining treatment and there was never an issue clearly a lot of people on here wasn't even aware. The scans take place at clinics where you also collect the medication. Ectopic or molar pregnancies could also be picked up and referred to the EPU/NHS. There were no staff shortages there wasn't any issues. You don't go ahead with a pregnancy without dating it with a scan how is this any different? I recently found out about this posting out treatment with no scan what's to say a person who decided they didn't like the sex of their baby etc at a later stage wouldn't obtain the medicine by just claiming to have a younger pregnancy? By stopping scans surely its just opening it up to deceit and tragedies like the 2 mentioned on here. Having a scan first does not make it harder to obtain abortion medication it makes sure it's a safeguarded practice for all women along with having finger prick bloods and being offered sti testing. Agree with someone up thread who said this is not the solution to an easier accessible service the answer is more clinics available.
Women haven't always been scanned. Somewhere around the early 80s it was used for pregnancy. I dont know what you mean by You don't go ahead with a pregnancy without dating it with a scan how is this any different How do you not go ahead? If your pregnant and keeping it, you just keep growing a baby. It doesn't stop just because you've not had a dating scan.

To find out the sex of your baby requires a scan. If you have a scan you are in the system, you cannot then lie about how far along you are.

I'd agree with a scan if at all possible, it wasnt possible through much of the pandemic, telemedical was the result. Nothing is ever perfect sure, but this is a good idea if we trust women to tell the truth. I do trust women to tell the truth.
I've had children, I know that at 30 weeks you can feel the baby moving even if you dont show.

LangClegsInSpace · 12/04/2022 23:03

Well we can never completely eliminate the risk of abusers getting hold of these pills, pills by post makes it a lot easier.

Really?

Option 1: abuser coaches and coerces his victim into jumping through all the hoops of a NHS consultation with a HCP who is trained in spotting abuse and safeguarding, and who makes a record of all the woman's details, and who does follow up, and who has all the referral pathways at her fingertips.

Option 2: abuser just buys the drugs online, no questions asked, nobody knows about it.

Abusers are not stupid.

Flickflak · 12/04/2022 23:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Thisisworsethananticpated · 12/04/2022 23:09

Sorry
But I’d rather a few stories like this than the alternative

Brutal thing to say

sashh · 12/04/2022 23:09

[quote Greenmascara]@savehannah, so in your example, her boyfriend is so controlling he won't let her out the house for one afternoon, even if she makes an excuse, to visit an abortion service, but he will be fine with abortion pills being delivered through the post to her ?[/quote]
It's not an afternoon though.

Under the old system it was a few hours on two consecutive days with the abortion actually happening for many women on the journey home.

Add on to that the travel to the clinic, which can be another hour.

Abortion pills have been delivered illegally to many many women unable to access abortion legally eg women in Ireland and NI, women in Poland and some other countries.

MagneticRubberDucks · 12/04/2022 23:14

@Flickflak

I can’t stand it when forced birthers dress themselves up as pro choice to try and influence a discussion. You should be ashamed, OP.
Exactly.
BiBabbles · 12/04/2022 23:26

Focusing on the pills by post rather than the understaffing and mismanagement issues is a bit weird to me, especially with the first case didn't even involve pills by post. She was given the pills in hospital. I know hospitals have their risks, but surely that's where you'd want them to be given if against pills by post?

Plenty of people have gotten prescriptions by phone for years. I've literally called up, given symptoms, was given advice and had pills to pick up in my local pharmacy ready within the hour -- and that's with me having a list of contraindications as long as my arm. They had to trust I was telling the truth, I have to trust that they aren't going to give me something that is risky for me. I've actually had some of my disabilities managed by phone for years. I'm not saying it's the best way to do things, but with the understaffing and accessibility issues, I'll take a nurse practitioner over the phone over waiting to see a GP.

No system is perfect, it's always a balance on benefits and risks and there is always room for improvements -- but it is a very known anti-abortion tactic to focus so much on the risks of an abortion path with little mention for the benefits which may be putting some on edge. As is misrepresenting studies and new articles as has happened here. I know my electronic records aren't perfect, especially those transferred from paper records, but I imagine such recent situations like this would be accessible to the research team if they had happened to the tens of thousands studied.

Let's drop the 'abortion is never desirable' bullshit. Yes it is. In the unlikely situation I got pregnant at this point in my life, I would desire an abortion very much. I grew up with women who discussed how glad they were to have theirs and those who wished they had gotten them. The less risky option is often more desirable.

Also, A doctor will not prescribe methadone without you proving you have tested positive for heroin via a drugs test. You cannot just walk into a drugs treatment centre and request methadone and refuse to be tested.

This type of misinformation is unhelpful. Methadone is a strong painkiller in its own right and is used in rotation as part of chronic pain care for many people that can last many years, for some the rest of their lives. It isn't only used for as part of drug abuse treatment nor do only those who test positive for opioid use get prescribed it. There is enough of a stigma on its use medication to the point people have been denied this really useful pain medication when it has been prescribed.

Nothanksloveimgood · 12/04/2022 23:27

Jesus christ I'm traumatised and heartbroken just reading that, that poor woman and poor baby.

Fucking disgrace.

whumpthereitis · 12/04/2022 23:31

The thing is, there exists no such thing as a perfect system, only a system that benefits the most amount of people and causes the least amount of harm within the parameters of what it can do. There are always going to be people harmed by systems we have in place (and I’m not just talking about abortion care here), and that’s the sad reality. We are capable of reducing harm, but not eliminating it completely. We can always hope and strive for otherwise, but it’s unrealistic to expect it. It’s unreasonable to write off a system that benefits the most whilst hurting the least on the basis of it failing some.

Would it be great if reproductive health services were well funded and all women had immediate access to exactly the care they needed? Absolutely. That’s not what exists though, and judging by the current climate it’s not going to exist in anything resembling the immediate future. We need laws to reflect the reality we live in, not laws designed for the perfect world we don’t. Removing this option for women won’t improve matters, it will only be a return to a system that was demonstrably worse for women.

VanGoghsDog · 12/04/2022 23:35

Just over 50 years ago "expert" wisdom was termination should be illegal in the U.K Good job that was challenged.....

I have no idea what medical experts were saying at the time but that was definitely a political (/religious) decision.

Vie8126 · 13/04/2022 07:04

@terfydactyl I can't comment on in the 80s I was a child but I know from the late 90s to up to Covid times from friends that have accessed abortion services including myself it has always involved a scan. Noone had needed to see their gp a direct call to MSI was all that was needed, noone had to seek two drs to sign off, MSI did all that and it was a straightforward procedure where msi also asked permission if they could contact your GP to update your medical records or if you were safe at home etc. Your offered a coil/contraception etc. I hope that still happens with just the phone call.

In my own experience, pregnant in a highly abusive relationship having tablets posted would have stopped me obtaining treatment as I couldn't even breath without the abusive ex doing something. My phone, my post all of it was fair game. Instead I was able to pop to a local clinic in my lunch break from work obtain pills take them and go home to be able to pass it off as a miscarriage. Are you able to nominate another address as my situation is common in abusive situations rather than rare?

My sister recently had a telemedical abortion, she wasn't sure of her dates neither did she really understand pregnancy and took the 3 weeks on the test to mean she was 3 weeks pregnant. She had also had some spotting which she assumed was a light period. Lucky she came to me and we discussed it and I was able to work out that the spotting was not a period and her actual period made her 5 to 6 weeks pregnant she was able to obtain her tablets easy but there was still an issue when they came in the post in that she nearly took them in the wrong order etc until she sent me photos. What happens if you take the tablets in the wrong order does it make it unsuccessful?

HardyBuckette · 13/04/2022 07:45

Well we can never completely eliminate the risk of abusers getting hold of these pills, pills by post makes it a lot easier.

How, exactly? Private unregulated postal services would continue to exist, indeed the demand for them would be higher if anything. They'd become better business. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that ending telemedical abortion would somehow make those services less available too. It would not. Once again, abusers who want to do that already can and they'll still be able to regardless of what abortion services on the NHS look like. That genie is not going back in the bottle. You are deluding yourself to think otherwise.

Hopspinach · 13/04/2022 08:00

Interesting that the majority of voters agree with you, but the comments are dominated by people attacking any skepticts as being "forced-birthers" and anti-woman.

Clearly the subject has become so politicised and partisan it's impossible to have a nuanced and reasonable discussion around it. Plenty of people agree with you, OP. But people are scared to voice their opinion because they see how they will be attacked. This makes the debate more and more one-sided and means we increasingly only hear one opinion. It's basically another, more insidious form of cancel culture.

Whatalovelydaffodil · 13/04/2022 08:09

There was a thread recently discussing why so many women are asked to do a pregnancy test.before having an xray, even though they knew they weren't/hadn't had sex for years/had had a hysterectomy. Most people on that thread thought it was fair enough for hospitals to ask for this as "otherwise they might get sued" and "better safe than sorry".

Yet on this thread the general opinion seems to be the opposite, i.e. we should trust women to know their own bodies and let them make their own decisions.

MN is strange sometimes

Hopspinach · 13/04/2022 08:13

@Whatalovelydaffodil

There was a thread recently discussing why so many women are asked to do a pregnancy test.before having an xray, even though they knew they weren't/hadn't had sex for years/had had a hysterectomy. Most people on that thread thought it was fair enough for hospitals to ask for this as "otherwise they might get sued" and "better safe than sorry".

Yet on this thread the general opinion seems to be the opposite, i.e. we should trust women to know their own bodies and let them make their own decisions.

MN is strange sometimes

It's because with issues that touch on abortion, people's ideology surmounts actually using their brain 🧠
NotthesameNotok · 13/04/2022 08:28

A lot of posters on here who are pro choice yet have concerns over the safety of no scans are being called ‘forced birthers’ or basically you mean they are anti abortion and pretending to be pro choice ??? That is NOT ok. I’m pro choice but I’m allowed an opinion on certain aspects without being labelled as something not.

Debate something fine but when you have to resort to that kind of insult you’ve lost. There’s an opportunity here for intelligent discussions and it’s just being shut down with this kind of attitude which is a shame

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