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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Eco protesting

264 replies

Boomerwang · 11/04/2022 05:59

Apparently there's a bill going forward to give police more powers to deal with protests and vigils that cause 'serious unease' or 'serious annoyance' and this bill has been blocked several times by Keir Starmer previously.

AIBU to think police should be granted more powers to stop protestors from blocking access points? I fully agree the right to protest must be protected, but what about when it affects others?

I'd argue to go even further and stop the waste of taxpayer's money by having to involve the police at all but then I know people would get seriously hurt this way and that's not okay.

At the same time, I wonder how effective these protests are by forcing us to confront what's going on and whether ultimately they are doing something good? Would they achieve results by sitting to the side of access points instead? Would anyone listen if daily life were uninterrupted? Does anyone stop to think of the cause just because they were physically stopped? Surely it's impossible to sympathise when you're angry?

Personally protesting is something I read about in the news but it doesn't prompt me to reflect on my contribution or research further.

Has anyone been affected by protests before and did it make you consider environment and ecology after the event?

OP posts:
worriedatthistime · 12/04/2022 10:31

@Puzzledandpissedoff thats the thing isn't it the human race sees itself as most impoRtant and that we can control nature
A lot of assumptions they make are based on xyz and what we may know from the past , but we don't know the future and we can't predict everything
We can al try and do better and live more sustainably but a bunch of rich people telling others what they should do isn't going fo change the world

worriedatthistime · 12/04/2022 10:33

@Thebestwaytoscareatory why don't these protesters set up a political party or join existing ones , many of them come from the money to do so, then they could advocate for real change, rather than cause misery and disruption to the average person just trying go get by

DdraigGoch · 12/04/2022 10:43

For example, better, affordable environmentally friendly public transport would really help with traffic and being able to get to work

How does gluing oneself to a DLR train improve access to public transport?

Let's see how the workers of Canning Town felt about having their journeys (again by electric train) disrupted:

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 10:49

@Puzzledandpissedoff from a climate perspective we are far far from being a microscopic pinprick and climate modelling is solid applied physics.

As you say any fool can post nonsense.

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 10:59

@worriedatthistime every time you get on a plane or in your car or walk in through your front you are relying on engineers and scientists to accurately predict flight physics, crash safety and building integrity. You can't pick and choose when physics does and doesn't apply to you.

Neverreturntoathread · 12/04/2022 10:59

The tactics used by Extinction Rebellion and those morons at Insulate Britain crossed a line. In particular putting buggies in the road was awful. But a lot of those tactics were already illegal.

I’m very nervous about giving the police more powers because they don’t seem to use their current powers well. Look at the violence used my groups of male police against women at the vigil for Sarah Everard.

In general I resent that protesters go on a march or whatever and feel like they have done their bit. Tackling climate change is a long hard road and protests achieve little, lobbying politicians and journalists is more effective, as is actually getting work in the relevant areas and trying to become a decision maker.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/04/2022 11:00

Thats the thing isn't it the human race sees itself as most impoRtant and that we can control nature
A lot of assumptions they make are based on xyz and what we may know from the past , but we don't know the future and we can't predict everything

Precisely, worried, but it plays well on social media and to some that seems the greater aim

I'd forget the running for office thing though, at least among the type whose real ambition is to get dragged away at a demo so they can howl "police brutality" and get a few more likes and strings of emojis. Too many struggle even to form a coherent sentence unless it's just slogans, so I expect a properly organised campaign would be beyond them

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/04/2022 11:05

Climate modelling is solid applied physics

Shame the modelling's so often been shown to be wrong then - goodness knows there are enough scholarly articles about it, if you care to use actual information rather than soundbites

Resilience · 12/04/2022 11:36

I believe climate change is real. It concerns me and I try to live greenly. However, the planet is not facing destruction. Humans and a whole range of species maybe, but the planet will rejuvenate in some form (based on our understanding of planets at present). While I don't want my children to suffer, I sometimes think the planet would be better off without us anyway. Personally, I think the focus has to be on targeting governments and big business (especially). Anything else won't achieve meaningful change. Lobby groups can be very powerful.

I support the right to peaceful protest but think the majority are completely pointless. They show a complete inability to understand how humans behave. Saying it's just one day of inconvenience compared to a lifetime of suffering completely fails to take into account the suffering caused by that one day of 'inconvenience.' For the self-employed or those not salaried that lost day of earning can translate to not being able to afford your child's much-needed new shoes or birthday present, going hungry, not being able to pay rent. Live in a city frequently impacted by protests and it's not a one-off either. A lot of people just get really pissed off, even when originally they had sympathy with the cause. Throw in a bit of hypocrisy and it's why a lot of protests are now being seen as an example of privileged virtue-signalling rather than a real desire to effect change. No one likes being dismissed as collateral damage, whatever their political persuasion.

A lot of protests also spiral beyond the original organiser's well-intentioned plans. I've been to way too many where quite a lot of the protesters have come for a social occasion and don't really know what it's all about (kill the bill was terrible for this, with many not knowing the name of the bill or what it proposed).

We're all hypocrites on the subject of climate change to some degree. Protests are largely organised through social media, which we all use regularly on our nice shiny, regularly updated, electronic devices which are incredibly polluting both to make and dispose of...

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 11:59

@Puzzledandpissedoff can you link to some of these peer reviewed articles that demonstrate that climate modelling is "wrong" to the extent that you suggest?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/04/2022 12:12

Google is your friend, Daftasabroom, not least because it highlights the difference between the reputable reports available and the kind of nonsense spewed all over Twatter, etc.

And if people genuinely want information I've always found they'll be willing to research it for themselves rather than asking others to do it for them

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 12:28

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Google is your friend, Daftasabroom, not least because it highlights the difference between the reputable reports available and the kind of nonsense spewed all over Twatter, etc.

And if people genuinely want information I've always found they'll be willing to research it for themselves rather than asking others to do it for them

So actually you can't provide a single link to a single report to support your views.

So let's leave Google out of it for a bit, which particular element of climate change do you think is wrong?

MangyInseam · 12/04/2022 12:37

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

the UK bears a significant responsibility for past emmisions and we can only benefit from reducing our future emmisions and developing the technologies and skills to do so.

We bear a significant responsibility for current emissons. The UK, and much of the West, are net importers of CO2e emissions. China, so often highlighted as the big bad polluter, is a net exporter by quite a significant amount. In essence, China are only the biggest source of emissons because we've offshored our production and they're the ones meeting the demand of our consumption habits.

The Global Carbon Project do huge amounts of research into embodied/embedded carbon emissons, which is widely ignored by Western media because it reveals us to be the issue, and we want to continue to pretend there's nothing we can do cause...China!

Tbh this thread has just reinforced the idea that discussion, debate, education, stats, figures, and facts are pointless. Huge chunks of the population don't believe, or just ignore, the truth.

Instead they'll close their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears, and scream "what about...X!" while they march off towards the cliff edge. Which would be fine if only they were going to be affected but, unfortunately we're all chained together and once they go over we're getting dragged over too. It's fucking depressing when you think about it, it's a genuine don't look up scenario.

All the polling suggests that actually, most people are quite concerned about it.

Protests like these actually drive a wedge, it's so counter-productive it's sad. Like a pp said it's mainly about protecting the future for the descendants of the protesters, that's the survival drive for my DNA at work even if they don't realize it.

The elephant in the room, even on this thread, is that "doing something" is a pretty meaningless thing to say. Protesters don't have any really bright ideas, and neither do the political leaders. Use less energy? Use less stuff? Switch to renewable. Lovely, but what does that actually mean?

Right now, the economy, the banking system, is based on oil. People are freaking out right now because of lack of availability of products and inflation and the real fear of food shortages. There are multiple threads with people saying there will or even ought to be riots for the government to "do something." The aftermath of dialing back consumption and energy use is not going to be different economically, that is what it will mean to a lot of people,.

Policies around energy have all kinds of other implications. Look at Germany right now. Or the dirty little secret of the environmental movement which is that renewables will not keep us in anything like the way we have become accustomed to. Probably they would keep us in a way that's just fine objectively, but not with the consumer goods, travel, transportation, big cities, choices in the supermarket, internet access, that we are used to now. People who move away from home to work will have to expect expect, as they did 70 years ago, that they will see their family rarely, or maybe never again. Accepting immigrants will become a serious burden as they create more demands on what will be very limited resources.

For at least a generation the environmental movement has been telling people that tech means we will be able to keep a lifestyle very much like the one we have now and still be light on the planet. That's bs and always has been. Protesters may well be right about the problems on the horizon but they are asking politicians to make choices that they themselves would likely freak out about, and that would crash the banks, make the leaders unelectable.

They are really offering nothing besides self-centered whining towards what is a really difficult problem without clear solutions.

MangyInseam · 12/04/2022 12:40

[quote Daftasabroom]@Puzzledandpissedoff from a climate perspective we are far far from being a microscopic pinprick and climate modelling is solid applied physics.

As you say any fool can post nonsense.[/quote]
It's not the same as making an airplane fly, though. I don't dispute climate change at all but I think it's rather disingenuous to suggest that modelling of that kind of a complex system with an infinite number of variables is the same as designing an airplane.

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 13:11

@MangyInseam Or the dirty little secret of the environmental movement which is that renewables will not keep us in anything like the way we have become accustomed to. Probably they would keep us in a way that's just fine objectively, but not with the consumer goods, travel, transportation, big cities, choices in the supermarket, internet access, that we are used to now.

This is simply untrue, there huge technology shifts coming over the next decades, yes we will have to change our behaviour but life overall will be better if we take action now.

There are not an infinite number of variables in climate models, the physics is the same. I think you'd amazed at the level of detail and complexity currently used to model aircraft and aviation operations.

MangyInseam · 12/04/2022 13:18

[quote Daftasabroom]**@MangyInseam* Or the dirty little secret of the environmental movement which is that renewables will not keep us in anything like the way we have become accustomed to. Probably they would keep us in a way that's just fine objectively, but not with the consumer goods, travel, transportation, big cities, choices in the supermarket, internet access, that we are used to now.*

This is simply untrue, there huge technology shifts coming over the next decades, yes we will have to change our behaviour but life overall will be better if we take action now.

There are not an infinite number of variables in climate models, the physics is the same. I think you'd amazed at the level of detail and complexity currently used to model aircraft and aviation operations.[/quote]
No, I don't think I would be amazed.

And I am not disputing we should take action now. That's not the real issue. What action? How? What will be the fall out?

You need to have some level of political realism.

I think you are being fundamentally naive about tech changes. It's not all about emissions and climate change. Look at farming - industrial farming right now, and that includes grains and other plants, is having a significant negative impact on soils that is soon going to come home to roost. It's also oil based. Look at mining.

And fucking protesters solution is to go around pissing off the very people they need to support.

fedupwithitnow · 12/04/2022 13:32

@NeverDropYourMooncup

The trouble is that people having lower energy bills directly contradicts their motives for protesting - to reduce use. Higher costs result in non essential use being reduced. So in reality, what they would actually want is homes insulated AND prices raised even higher.

It's the same with water. Water meters reduce usage. It's a fact. But they also cost poor people and disabled people a far greater proportion of their lower incomes. Because if the prices are so low that it doesn't negatively affect somebody on a low income to use what they actually need, it has even less effect upon the people who can easily afford it and don't care about the size of the water bill filling up their baths and Jacuzzis and putting the sprinklers on through the day.

So true
Notanotherwindow · 12/04/2022 13:51

If someone I loved had been in one of those ambulances that couldn't get through they would have been much more important to me than anyone or anything else

If someone I loved was in one of those ambulances, I'd be in jail for murder. Possibly several murders.

There are ways to effect change that don't endanger others.

worriedatthistime · 12/04/2022 14:03

@Daftasabroom they don't even all agree on this though
And i know when I fly there is also always a risk as with anything designed or decided by a human , their wouldn't br accidents then
Scientists don't trump mother nature

worriedatthistime · 12/04/2022 14:11

@Daftasabroom i don't even not necessarily not believe in climate change but What I don't agree in is these groups which are causing chaos and risking lifes here and now
We could change everything and it still might not make a difference as I said if mother nature has other plans, if you believe in the science then we descended from a different form than today
But these groups are nothing more than trouble makers
The only time I have seen anything from them is when they are causing choas

worriedatthistime · 12/04/2022 14:16

@Daftasabroom you cannot compare the whole world some of which we still know little about with aircraft design
We haven't even explored the whole ocean , why are you using a mobile now ?
Do any of these people live in a fully solar powered house , eat mostly from their land and live a while different life , judging by what many of them wear - no
The alternatives may be seen as greened bit like the revolution of energy light bulbs and how much electric they save , lets ignore the mercury in them though that can be released when broken, in a fragile glass container, some scientist thought they were a good idea

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 14:36

@worriedatthistime @MangyInseam And fucking protesters solution is to go around pissing off the very people they need to support. on this I agree.

So a few of the things that are in the pipeline.

Decarbonising electricity generation. This is well underway, wind supplied 25% in 2020 and a 500% increase is planned within the next ten years. Floating wind demonstrators are planned and installations likely to be operation with the next ten years in the Celtic Sea. LPG and waste to energy will provide short term base load and this will be replaced by small modular nuclear. Tide and wave are unlikely to be competitive. Solar will be the first option for onshore and industrial building installation.

Decarbonising heating of buildings. More insulation, up to 20% H2 in the existing supply. The big change will be to air source heat pumps - there are specific high temperature versions for retrofit.

Decarbonising transport. A mixture of electricity and H2. Road transport, a mix of electric with some H2 for HGV and buses etc. Off highway - again a mix of electric and H2, maybe some biofuels such as biobutanol. Shipping, electric short run, biofuel and wind for long distance. Aerospace; UAM market is currently looking at electric, regional LH2, inter/transcontinental biofuels.

This is all in development right now and would address about 75% of our emissions.

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 14:42

@worriedatthistime LEDs don't contain mercury and fluorescents are being phased out.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 12/04/2022 14:52

The big change will be to air source heat pumps - there are specific high temperature versions for retrofit.

I presume this will only be when a boiler needs replacing and millions of perfectly good boilers won't be sent to landfill (I wouldn't put it past the government!)?

Daftasabroom · 12/04/2022 15:01

@PinkSparklyPussyCat correct there would be little point in swapping out good boilers. Boilers in new builds will be phased out in 2025.