Eco protesting

[Boomerwang]

Apparently there's a bill going forward to give police more powers to deal with protests and vigils that cause 'serious unease' or 'serious annoyance' and this bill has been blocked several times by Keir Starmer previously.

AIBU to think police should be granted more powers to stop protestors from blocking access points? I fully agree the right to protest must be protected, but what about when it affects others?

I'd argue to go even further and stop the waste of taxpayer's money by having to involve the police at all but then I know people would get seriously hurt this way and that's not okay.

At the same time, I wonder how effective these protests are by forcing us to confront what's going on and whether ultimately they are doing something good? Would they achieve results by sitting to the side of access points instead? Would anyone listen if daily life were uninterrupted? Does anyone stop to think of the cause just because they were physically stopped? Surely it's impossible to sympathise when you're angry?

Personally protesting is something I read about in the news but it doesn't prompt me to reflect on my contribution or research further.

Has anyone been affected by protests before and did it make you consider environment and ecology after the event?

The whole problem is the green movement is very red inside.

To see the zero carbon future they want means living in a totalitarian authoritarian communist state.

There will be no freedom of travel. No freedom to live where you want. No freedom to choose your employment. No freedom to eat what you want. No freedom to wear what you want.

Basically, we are heading towards a future where everyone has to live in an overcrowded mega city, living off vegan kibble, reliant on benefits as there will be no economy, no manufacturing, no retail, no farming. The masses certainly won't have access to their own vehicles, and public transport almost certainly rationed on a environmental impact basis where Greta Thunberg has to authorize your travel certificates. Tourism will cease to exist. Live concerts, festivals, restaurants, shopping malls, outdoor sports, access to the countryside all likely to be a thing of the past.

It's a desperately sad future they want, I hope I'm dead before they get anywhere close to achieving it.

The worst thing is, when they are proved wrong and we are still here in 2 years, they will still bang on about it. When they wrong in 20 years, wrong in 50 years, and wrong 100 years, they will still be pushing this nonsense.

Its a political movement not an environmental one.

Meanwhile, we will pay ever more crippling costs for energy, food and taxes which do nothing to help anything.

Just look at electric car ownership right now. Wealthy people who can afford new cars, getting subsidised to buy them, where they charge them via subsidised solar panels they fitted, getting all the benefits of nearly free "fuel" while the rest of country gets punished with punitive taxes. Electric cars will never be affordable for "ordinary" people, because we are not meant to be allowed to travel.

@Daftasabroom well those trucks are not that affordable and where will they all charge, the infrastructure is not there
2030 is a pipe dream its 7 years away , remember when we were all told buy diesel as that was better ????

@Notlabeled exactly the rich get richer and suffer less
How many of these protesters know what real struggles are

@Notlabeled you have just described the future if carry on business as usual, not the future we will have if we make the changes required to avoid catastrophic climate change.

@Notlabeled

The whole problem is the green movement is very red inside.

To see the zero carbon future they want means living in a totalitarian authoritarian communist state.

There will be no freedom of travel. No freedom to live where you want. No freedom to choose your employment. No freedom to eat what you want. No freedom to wear what you want.

Basically, we are heading towards a future where everyone has to live in an overcrowded mega city, living off vegan kibble, reliant on benefits as there will be no economy, no manufacturing, no retail, no farming. The masses certainly won't have access to their own vehicles, and public transport almost certainly rationed on a environmental impact basis where Greta Thunberg has to authorize your travel certificates. Tourism will cease to exist. Live concerts, festivals, restaurants, shopping malls, outdoor sports, access to the countryside all likely to be a thing of the past.

It's a desperately sad future they want, I hope I'm dead before they get anywhere close to achieving it.

The worst thing is, when they are proved wrong and we are still here in 2 years, they will still bang on about it. When they wrong in 20 years, wrong in 50 years, and wrong 100 years, they will still be pushing this nonsense.

Its a political movement not an environmental one.

Meanwhile, we will pay ever more crippling costs for energy, food and taxes which do nothing to help anything.

Just look at electric car ownership right now. Wealthy people who can afford new cars, getting subsidised to buy them, where they charge them via subsidised solar panels they fitted, getting all the benefits of nearly free "fuel" while the rest of country gets punished with punitive taxes. Electric cars will never be affordable for "ordinary" people, because we are not meant to be allowed to travel.

Yes it's beginning to have a smack of 1984 about it

[quote Daftasabroom]@Notlabeled you have just described the future if carry on business as usual, not the future we will have if we make the changes required to avoid catastrophic climate change.[/quote]
The changes you want are not possible without global authoritarian regime that will use force to take away peoples cars, homes, food, jobs and freedoms.

We got a taste of it the last 2 years. The population of Shanghai are getting a true taste of it right now.

Its a grim joyless future. i want no part of it.

@Notlabeled the changes are being made and have been developing increasingly rapidly.

Fundamentally we need to stop burning fossil fuels, it really is that simple. The UK already gets 39.4% of its electricity from renewables. Offshore wind accounts for 11.4% already and is due to increase by 500% over the next ten years.

Excess electricity will be used to create clean hydrogen via electrolysis. The hydrogen can be used in combustion engines or fuel cells.

Battery technologies using sulphur and sodium are developing that don't rely on rare and difficult elements such as lithium. They predicted to cost half that if Li-ion.

Between 28,000 and 33,000 people die each year in the UK each year due particulate emissions from burning fossil fuels to heat our homes and power our vehicles.

I think the moronic actions of some of these protesters are incredibly damaging but some of the comments here really are the flip side to that coin.

[quote Daftasabroom]@Notlabeled the changes are being made and have been developing increasingly rapidly.

Fundamentally we need to stop burning fossil fuels, it really is that simple. The UK already gets 39.4% of its electricity from renewables. Offshore wind accounts for 11.4% already and is due to increase by 500% over the next ten years.

Excess electricity will be used to create clean hydrogen via electrolysis. The hydrogen can be used in combustion engines or fuel cells.

Battery technologies using sulphur and sodium are developing that don't rely on rare and difficult elements such as lithium. They predicted to cost half that if Li-ion.

Between 28,000 and 33,000 people die each year in the UK each year due particulate emissions from burning fossil fuels to heat our homes and power our vehicles.

I think the moronic actions of some of these protesters are incredibly damaging but some of the comments here really are the flip side to that coin.[/quote]
Best tell the Chinese government all that, as they shovel endless amounts of dirty Australian coal into their power stations.

Renewables.....wind energy doesn't always provide 11%. I often provides more. Also it sometimes can provide as little as 1%. In Germany, the wind failed to blow for 19 out 30 days recently. Hence their dependence on paying billions to Putin so he can bomb Ukraine.

Wind is such a waste of money. We have 100% predictable, 100% reliable tidal energy all around the UK with no investment in it. We could of ditched fossil fuels decades ago, but we listened to "environmentalists" and stopped building new nuclear plants.

If the eco-loons get their way hydrogen won't be allowed because it still produces Nox emissions.

Besides, I thought we only had 2 years. So how are you going to force people to give up their cars, homes, jobs, hobbies, travel and freedom within that 2 year window?

Unless of course, the 2 years deadline is total bollocks.

@Notlabeled hydrogen combustion can produce NOx which is one reason that it is very unlikely to be used in domestic heating.

Wind is significantly cheaper than tidal energy which is not the panacea that many believe. If the UK made the most of our tidal resource we could generate up to 10GW, considering we currently have 11.1GW of offshore wind with a further 40GW in planning so it's clear that tidal energy really can't compete.

I don't know anything about a two year window, the current carbon budget is net zero by 2050.

@araiwa

Is it even a protest if it doesn't cause unease or annoyance?

I think protests should be confined to certain areas.

Picketing should be illegal - fine to withdraw labour, fine to stand somewhere and protest, not fine to try to intimidate colleagues into not working.

I am sure we're all agreed that anti-abortionists should be allowed anywhere near abortion clinics.

As for the Extinction Rebellion protesters, I inadvertently wandered into one their protests yesterday as I was heading to the railway station to go home from London. I would not have been impressed if I had missed my train or got caught up in a kettling situation. But who would trust the Met to take a proportionate view of anything?

@Notlabeled Ireland has higher per capita emissions than China.

[quote Daftasabroom]@Notlabeled hydrogen combustion can produce NOx which is one reason that it is very unlikely to be used in domestic heating.

Wind is significantly cheaper than tidal energy which is not the panacea that many believe. If the UK made the most of our tidal resource we could generate up to 10GW, considering we currently have 11.1GW of offshore wind with a further 40GW in planning so it's clear that tidal energy really can't compete.

I don't know anything about a two year window, the current carbon budget is net zero by 2050.[/quote]
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

1 GW of wind right today. 3% of demand.

@Notlabeled it's pretty well recognised the wind doesn't blow all the time but the tide doesn't flow all the time either so it isn't suitable for baseload.

It comes back to the question of who's going to pay for it though. I'm not paying for a heat pump when I have a perfectly good boiler for example. I'm not going to trade my car for something electric until there are better options for charging (and they look better but that's a whole other issue). I can only have my flat insulated from the outside which is far more expensive than cavity wall insulation so I won't be paying for that either.

Prices need to come down to equivalent to or less than the existing options.

This thread is f ing scary

@PinkSparklyPussyCat you don't need to change your boiler today or scrap your car. The cost of renewables, including heat pumps, are going to reduce all the time, and the price of fossil fuels will increase. At some point the two will cross over and in some cases they already have.

The point is though if I had to change something today I would go for a combi boiler, ICE car etc because there's no incentive to do otherwise.

It’s the bloody entitlement that gets me. ER closed down centre London and whilst I was heavily pregnant I had to walk miles . There was a disabled women stuck In Piccadilly trying to get to a hospital appointment. Not to mention that poor women who died of a stroke whilst stuck in traffic. My right to
Protest does not outweigh the right of other citizens to live. I am an environmentalist - however I do not support Extinction Rebellions , I think their demands are wholly unrealistic and actually alienate most people, they do more harm then good. There are many , many ways we can as individuals do more to address climate change. We don’t have to glue ourselves to the road.

My right to Protest does not outweigh the right of other citizens to live.

This is incorrect. Your right to 'live' is not connected to their right to protest. Rights can not be traded in this childlish way.

Similarly everyone's right to 'live' does not trump other people's right to drive - even though car emissions contributes to the deaths caused by emissions, people are allowed to continue.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat I agree with you but different people have different situations. We don't have mains gas, we have no space to put an oil or LPG tank. An ASHP makes huge sense for us versus storage heaters.

Oh I agree @Daftasabroom. What I mean is for me, with mains gas there would be no incentive whatsoever to swap an old boiler for a heat pump and that's where the problem would be. I would have to spend loads of money and have a lot of upheaval whereas a boiler can be replaced for much less without any issues.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat I think we're agreeing to agree!

When I am due to change things I will look for the most environmentally friendly options within my budget. But I’m not going to get rid of working things and I’m not going to buy things I can’t afford.

I think most people do care and want to make better choices but they can only do that within the restraints of their lifestyle and budgets. I hate the amount of plastic waste my household produces but I have a tube fed son and other than reusing things as much as possible I can’t do anything about that. I try to reduce in other areas but sometimes it’s simply not possible.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

It comes back to the question of who's going to pay for it though. I'm not paying for a heat pump when I have a perfectly good boiler for example. I'm not going to trade my car for something electric until there are better options for charging (and they look better but that's a whole other issue). I can only have my flat insulated from the outside which is far more expensive than cavity wall insulation so I won't be paying for that either.

Prices need to come down to equivalent to or less than the existing options.

Yes I second that.

Especially when the heat pumps aren't particularly efficient and are expensive

@fedupwithitnow in what way are heat pumps not particularly efficient?