To miss genuine veggie food

[IdiotIntrusion]

In the light of all the vegan options coming out, what's happened to veggie food? Granted veggies can eat vegan but I want real cheese or mayo on my burger instead of the fake stuff.

Not even allowed to add a coffee to a 'vegan' meal at burger king, I assume because of the milk. Had to pay separately.

Just having a moan. It's annoying as hell. Anyone else?

@PaintAndPirouettes

I need to eat dairy as I have a vitD deficiency. I ended up with a fractured spine in two places last time I cut dairy (weight loss reasons) as my bones became so brittle.

Have you had a DeXA scan for bone density? I'd be concerned you have an underlying condition (such as osteoporosis) and cutting dairy was more of a coincidence than anything else. There are drugs that can help - they're known as bisphosphonates.

Most people in the UK (of all dietary persuasions) are vitamin D deficient to a greater or lesser extent but vitamin D tablets can be bought quite cheaply (there are vegan and non vegan versions of vitamin D tablets too - can't remember what's non vegan about some though)

Non vegan is often derived from sheep's wool! It's the kind they usually use to fortify cereals.

@PaintAndPirouettes Ah, but what I was referring to was the exploitation and harm of the meat industry. I didn't mean that people are literally eating, say, the 'waste' male chicks. All the 'waste product' of dairy and egg production is treated just as abusively and destructively as the 'waste product' in the meat industry...because it's all animal agriculture. I should have phrased it better and I definitely appreciate your additions!

@Amrapaali

YADNBU! I'm supposed to go out to a fancy restaurant with a group. The menu had only two meatless options- both vegan.

Honestly I refuse to eat food where half the words used to describe the dish are in quotation marks- " Not bacon" in a vegan bun with "feta" and "parmesan"

Truly scary frankenfood

If you've been vegan your entire life then you don't care if it's meant to be like feta etc! I completely agree. And fake meat is disgusting.

I’m with you on this as a meat eater!

I will happily go to cafes and eat a vegan scone with jam but most vegan milks curdle or are too thin or have a nutty taste or a bitterness. For tea and coffee I want milk.

Vegan cakes taste the same usually but fuuuck they’re usually much much higher in calories and sugar than the dairy and eggs version. And so many vegan cakes have nuts and the fake creams taste foul.

most vegan milks curdle or are too thin or have a nutty taste or a bitterness. For tea and coffee I want milk.

You want the barista versions of the plant milks. I eat dairy but I'm quite partial to Oatly Barista - it's different but I slightly prefer the taste.

Only reason I don't use it routinely is because I find I want more in a cup than I would dairy milk, and it's more expensive than dairy milk, so it works out pricey.

Elmlea Plant doesn't taste identical to normal cream but it behaves in a very similar way (e.g. you can whip it and cook with it). Once you've added in the flavours you would anyway (e.g. if you are making a mushroom stroganoff, or sugar and vanilla for a dessert) it's undistinguishable. Not sure I'd tip a tub over my strawberries though.

@EveningOverRooftops

I’m with you on this as a meat eater!

I will happily go to cafes and eat a vegan scone with jam but most vegan milks curdle or are too thin or have a nutty taste or a bitterness. For tea and coffee I want milk.

Vegan cakes taste the same usually but fuuuck they’re usually much much higher in calories and sugar than the dairy and eggs version. And so many vegan cakes have nuts and the fake creams taste foul.

@EveningOverRooftops Dairy and eggs are very high calorie, you must have been buying some pretty strange vegan cakes...

All fats are high in calories
So it doesn't matter if it's vegan or dairy

@mudgetastic True, but non-vegan foods are generally worse for longterm health outcomes.

@Fairislefandango So are many ingredients in non vegan foods, but this sort of attack is always (strangely grin) directed at vegans. Even though a vegan diet is not only the most ethically well founded choice in terms of (obviously) animal welfare and the environment, but also the best for human longevity and health outcomes.

Funny how some on Mumsnet are determined to smear our food, all the same. hmm

Thats not true, its not vegan bashing, I think most of us are saying we actually like proper vegan food, you know the kind made with vegetables, pulses, nuts. But not the kind that looks like meat and is full of emulsifiers, stabilisers, enhancers and other additives. I'm not sure there's any health benefit there. I eat mainly vegetarian (and often vegan meals) because I want to be healthier.

[quote DalarnaHorses]**@Fairislefandango So are many ingredients in non vegan foods, but this sort of attack is always (strangely grin) directed at vegans. Even though a vegan diet is not only the most ethically well founded choice in terms of (obviously) animal welfare and the environment, but also the best for human longevity and health outcomes.

Funny how some on Mumsnet are determined to smear our food, all the same. hmm

Thats not true, its not vegan bashing, I think most of us are saying we actually like proper vegan food, you know the kind made with vegetables, pulses, nuts. But not the kind that looks like meat and is full of emulsifiers, stabilisers, enhancers and other additives. I'm not sure there's any health benefit there. I eat mainly vegetarian (and often vegan meals) because I want to be healthier.[/quote]
I don’t think I have ever seen vegan food that looks like meat. Can you give some examples?

And if meat eaters can eat processed crap full of God knows what without people batting an eyelid then why can’t vegans have the same option?

@PaintAndPirouettes

I need to eat dairy as I have a vitD deficiency. I ended up with a fractured spine in two places last time I cut dairy (weight loss reasons) as my bones became so brittle.

Have you had a DeXA scan for bone density? I'd be concerned you have an underlying condition (such as osteoporosis) and cutting dairy was more of a coincidence than anything else. There are drugs that can help - they're known as bisphosphonates.

Most people in the UK (of all dietary persuasions) are vitamin D deficient to a greater or lesser extent but vitamin D tablets can be bought quite cheaply (there are vegan and non vegan versions of vitamin D tablets too - can't remember what's non vegan about some though)

I did. They were extremely concerned at first and thought I had severe osteoporosis or cancer that had spread to my bones. A really worrying time and a kick up the bum to change my diet to a healthier one that included dairy.

As for wanting eggs and dairy at restaurants - how often do you actually think I eat at restaurants? How many field mice do you think have been churned up in tractors when harvesting vegetables? Do you check your beauty products are vegan/cruelty free? Does your car have a leather steering wheel? There is nothing anybody can do in this world that does not in some way have a negative impact on animals. We can minimise it but we cannot completely stamp it out. Unless you're a vegan living completely off the grid and grow your own vegetables then you have absolutely no right to school me on what I can and cannot eat.

@EatsQuorn

For the vegetarian or vegans out there , be aware when buying from fast food outlets , there isn't a special place the burger is cooked , it's all cooked on the same hotplate / grill .

And ethically this is fine. You are still paying for the plant based product therefore increasing demand for the vegan options and reducing demand for meat. The fact it may have come into contact with something non vegan does not change that.

@Fairislefandango

You're correct, but why do you have to be so derogatory towards vegan food - 'fake'

But some vegan (and vegetarian) foods are fake versions of something else. Vegan bacon is not bacon! The OP isn't being derogatory towards vegan food in general. The fake stuff may not be literally made of plastic, but it's very highly processed and often full of dubious-sounsing ingredients you wouldn't find in a domestic kitchen.

But why is vegan bacon not bacon?

If you can make bacon out of processed ground up and seasoned pig then why can’t you make it out of processed ground up and seasoned vegetables?

If you can make mayo with eggs then why can’t you make it without? If you can make cheese with cows milk then why can’t you make cashews or coconut oil?

Food adapts and changes constantly. Traditionally pizza should not have cheese on for instance however we have adapted it so now cheese is standard. An Italian would probably have a heart attack if they saw you putting pepperoni on a pizza but nobody would say pizza with cheese or pepperoni on was fake pizza. Indian food served in the UK is vastly different to Indian food in India but nobody would say that stuff you can buy in the UK is fake.

So why refer to cheese, bacon, etc that has been adapted as ‘fake’?

How many field mice do you think have been churned up in tractors when harvesting vegetables?

The net impact of farming vegetables is minuscule compared to animal agriculture

Do you check your beauty products are vegan/cruelty free?

Yes. All of mine are.

Does your car have a leather steering wheel?

No.

@IdiotIntrusion I'm genuinely not sure why you think vegans would not do these things.

@IdiotIntrusion a healthier one that included dairy

Dairy is not healthier.

@Innocenta

How many field mice do you think have been churned up in tractors when harvesting vegetables?

The net impact of farming vegetables is minuscule compared to animal agriculture

Do you check your beauty products are vegan/cruelty free?

Yes. All of mine are.

Does your car have a leather steering wheel?

No.

@IdiotIntrusion I'm genuinely not sure why you think vegans would not do these things.

Not to mention I highly doubt that many animals are actually killed in the production of crops. Machines and tractors are very loud. Do people honestly believe that small prey animas hear them and just sit there? They don’t run away when they hear the machines approaching? Come on now

[quote DalarnaHorses]**@Fairislefandango So are many ingredients in non vegan foods, but this sort of attack is always (strangely grin) directed at vegans. Even though a vegan diet is not only the most ethically well founded choice in terms of (obviously) animal welfare and the environment, but also the best for human longevity and health outcomes.

Funny how some on Mumsnet are determined to smear our food, all the same. hmm

Thats not true, its not vegan bashing, I think most of us are saying we actually like proper vegan food, you know the kind made with vegetables, pulses, nuts. But not the kind that looks like meat and is full of emulsifiers, stabilisers, enhancers and other additives. I'm not sure there's any health benefit there. I eat mainly vegetarian (and often vegan meals) because I want to be healthier.[/quote]
The reason why it's vegan bashing is because there are actually way more disgusting, crappy foods which contain animal ingredients. But no one levels this sort of criticism at them.

I agree that these hyper processed vegan options are unappealing and not very healthy; I myself eat largely whole foods vegan. But it's naive to think that the vitriol directed at processed vegan options isn't because they are vegan.

I feel properly cheated. I waited years to have a good range of non meat options. Now vegan is everywhere I go and get coeliac disease which means I'm back to the crappy "special diet" option again, usually a jacket potato or something. And even then they sometimes manage to contaminate it. Why is everything filled with wheat? Why are gluten free options lumped in with everything else free so I can no longer get a nice ice cream on a cone for example? And don't get me started on the effect of some vegan milks at coffee shops. They contaminate the machines with gluten, making them unusable for coeliacs. It could be prevented so easily by using GF oat milk but in many cases they just don't care. There are some good ones but generally no one is bothered about those of us with health related dietary needs.

@DrCoconut

I feel properly cheated. I waited years to have a good range of non meat options. Now vegan is everywhere I go and get coeliac disease which means I'm back to the crappy "special diet" option again, usually a jacket potato or something. And even then they sometimes manage to contaminate it. Why is everything filled with wheat? Why are gluten free options lumped in with everything else free so I can no longer get a nice ice cream on a cone for example? And don't get me started on the effect of some vegan milks at coffee shops. They contaminate the machines with gluten, making them unusable for coeliacs. It could be prevented so easily by using GF oat milk but in many cases they just don't care. There are some good ones but generally no one is bothered about those of us with health related dietary needs.

The contamination in coffee shops has always happened. If someone is allergic to cows milk then they have always been contaminated. When the only non dairy milks a available were soya and almond then they were also contaminated with nuts and soya.

I agree that these hyper processed vegan options are unappealing and not very healthy

That's all I was saying.

I myself eat largely whole foods vegan. But it's naive to think that the vitriol directed at processed vegan options isn't because they are vegan.

Maybe some people express vitriol towards vegans or veganism, but I haven't seen any of that on this thread. I have no issue whatsoever with people being vegan, and I dislike artificial, highly processed meat-based foods as well as vegan ones.

I guess that for a lot of non-vegans, the idea of eating a healthy, natural plant-based dish is very appealing. They see eating vegan for a meal, or a week, or a month as being a healthy, nourishing thing to do. But I guess if you're vegan it's nice to have the option of eating some easy, indulgent crap once in a while.

“If you can make bacon out of processed ground up and seasoned pig then why can’t you make it out of processed ground up and seasoned vegetables?”

Bacon is not processed ground up pig! It is cured pork, sliced.

@LennyAndTheDucks Absolutely true. It's not a zero sum game, and plenty of vegans have allergies and medical conditions too. People in this thread and other MN threads about vegans are verrrry ready to blame the rise in veganism for any difficulties they have finding suitable food!

@PaintAndPirouettes

I need to eat dairy as I have a vitD deficiency. I ended up with a fractured spine in two places last time I cut dairy (weight loss reasons) as my bones became so brittle.

Have you had a DeXA scan for bone density? I'd be concerned you have an underlying condition (such as osteoporosis) and cutting dairy was more of a coincidence than anything else. There are drugs that can help - they're known as bisphosphonates.

Most people in the UK (of all dietary persuasions) are vitamin D deficient to a greater or lesser extent but vitamin D tablets can be bought quite cheaply (there are vegan and non vegan versions of vitamin D tablets too - can't remember what's non vegan about some though)

Sheeps wool is used and its also the reason a lot of fortified breakfast cereals are not vegan.

@RockyRoadster

“If you can make bacon out of processed ground up and seasoned pig then why can’t you make it out of processed ground up and seasoned vegetables?”

Bacon is not processed ground up pig! It is cured pork, sliced.

Okay then.

If you can make bacon out of pig then why can’t you make it out of vegetables?

Turkey bacon is a thing after all.

@IdiotIntrusion

I literally said 'farm shop eggs' or home reared chickens

So farms, who have hens running around free who are separated from the males so no chance of eggs being fertilised. These hens will produce eggs irrelevant. Home eggs; I have a family friend who treats his chickens better than his dog. What's wrong with those eggs? I don't support the egg industry as I don't buy them.

This thread isn't even about what is ethically right or wrong. I just want to eat goddamn dairy as that's my personal choice and I don't see why that should be taken away from me to please other people when surely it would be better to offer both options?

I need to eat dairy as I have a vitD deficiency. I ended up with a fractured spine in two places last time I cut dairy (weight loss reasons) as my bones became so brittle.

Again you’re being very naive. For your friend who has home reared chickens, how many roosters does he have? Anybody keeping chickens for eggs will only need female hens. You won’t know whether an egg will procure a male or female chick until it’s hatched, so what do you think happens to all those male chicks? Most will be killed after hatching or they will be passed onto the meat industry. Yes, the part of the chain where a chicken running around your friend’s garden producing eggs looks pretty cruelty free but if you look further up the chain there will be male chicks slaughtered because they are useless to the egg industry and because almost nobody keeping chickens in their garden wants to buy roosters.

Most vegans have chosen to be vegan because there isn’t really a way for the average person in the UK to enjoy eating and using animal products without exploiting the animals in some way, yes you might be able to keep a couple of happy chickens in your garden and eat their eggs but those chickens will have come from a place which slaughtered the excess males as chicks or sold them for meat so you’re still supporting an industry which is harmful to animals. The only way not to support this industry would be to abstain from eating and using animal products at all which is what many vegans try to do.

To reiterate I am absolutely not judging your choice to eat eggs or be vegetarian rather than vegan, as stated previously in the thread I am also vegetarian, but I just wanted to point out why eating eggs from a happy chicken or ethical farm isn’t really cruelty free.