GRAND NATIONAL

[PIPSUE]

AIBU to think that a £400 fine for excessive use of a whip by a jockey is not enough. In this case, the jockey was the winner and received £560000. I think he should lose his place to the second finisher, and still pay the £400 fine, otherwise it isn't fair on the other jockeys in the face.

@Moanranger - you not seeing many OTTBs at shows isn't a solid basis for declaring that very few are retrained successfully. Do you ask everyone what their horse's provenance is? How would you know they're not OTTBs? My old-fashioned NH type didn't look like a stereotypical TB but he successfully competed after retiring from a very successful racing career. I don't think you'd have identified him as an ex-racer unless I told you. What about those that go on to team chase, hunt etc? Or just make nice hacks? It's not all about eventing and showing and they're not the sole ways of determining whether a horse is successfully retrained. Those horses, like a few of my parents', that retire to be happy hackers don't figure into your reasoning. What about those that leave training with no name having never raced like my last little mare? There's no way of tracing her, but she'll feature in the list of foals bred that year and I assume people will argue that she's been slaughtered for not making the grade. She's actually off doing some unaffiliated stuff and being a nice little amateur horse, but no one would really know that unless they knew me and who I sold her to.

I've not seen the numbers crunched by welfare organisations that you've mentioned. The RSPCA (although I'm not denying that they're useless) admit that there's no formalised way of tracking those horses who leave the system, so really it's just projection. I'd say that a few hundred to low thousands is an exceedingly low assumption.

I know tons of people with ex racers both ex flat and ex jumpers - none of them show for reasons such as.. the classes/retired racehorse org. classes are boring, stuffy rules, not fun.. and also 'not interested in showing'. They however are happy hackers, dressage horses, eventers... you just wouldn't know them to be ex racers unless you know, if that makes sense.

Back to whip use as I thought of something else..

'Over use of the whip' or 'misuse of the whip'... translates to joe public as 'jockey thrashed their horse half to death the barbaric bastard' and whilst I am not denying that could happen, there will be absolute cunts in all walks of life, that is rare in all horse sports, and incidents of it are high profile and tend to ruin careers (And rightly so).

Over use or misuse can be... mistimed it. It can be lost track and picked up the whip for the 9th time not the 8th.

I can't imagine hurtling round the GN course, negotiating jumps, paying attention to where I am, where other horses are, who is crowding me, who is going to get in the way... and thinking 'now have I used this whip 7 times or 8 times'... or 'have I raised my arm too high'...

Waley-Cohen got his ban/fine for raising his arm too high and hitting the horse in the wrong place (I haven't seen the race, I don't watch the GN!)..

Here are the rules.. www.thepja.co.uk/service/whip-use/

Those whip rules are there for a reason and those reasons are good, I wouldn't want them revoked and yes if you get on a horse and ride it you should be mindful of what you are asking of that horse and whether you're being kind, fair, responsible... But misuse does not = thrashed it!

One of my dds works in racing. The horses are well looked after and they go to great lengths to find homes for the retired/not interested in racing ones. V occasionally they get a rogue one that is unsuitable for rehoming, and that is always euthanised at the yard so it doesn’t go from pillar to post and end up in a slaughter house.

For a horse to race in the Grand National I can assure you it definitely likes both racing and jumping. There is no way of forcing a horse to jump at speed, if it doesn’t like jumping, yes you can force it to jump, but not in a manner that would win races.

The whips are very well padded. I remember dd being given one and her younger siblings had great fun hitting each other with it. They are nothing like regular riding crops used in other, apparently less cruel, equestrian sports.

There will always be hard bastards in any animal industry, from farming through dog breeding to horses, but there are also the majority who really to care for their animals.

The Grand National is vile!

@LeggyLinda

Absolutely no basis whatsoever. Like I said, I have no knowledge of horse racing. But, the amount of news stories I hear about horses being put down for a broken leg etc makes me feel they could be healed if money wasn’t the driving factor. I may be totally wrong (and probably am). But, I don’t think it is a justifiable reason to put an animal down.

Depends on the type of fracture, but the anatomy of the equine lower limb is effectively an evolution of a single digit (middle finger and nail) carrying hundreds of kg of loading forces at stand and significantly more running or landing. In being evolved (and bred) for speed, they are also inherently fragile and would be unlikely to ever achieve adequate comfort or function post limb fracture repair, that’s if you even got them through a surgery and post operative recovery.

Bearing this in mind, it makes horse racing even more cruel, pushing animals to the limits of their physical pattern, over using whips etc. knowing that if they fall there’s a high chance it will end in euthanasia.

I've got 4 ex racehorses here on my farm. One belonged to my father. The others are owned by people who stable them here. They live the life of Riley here. So racehorses don't all get slaughtered if they 'fail'.

Hortensiateapot Bearing this in mind, it makes horse racing even more cruel, pushing animals to the limits of their physical pattern, over using whips etc. knowing that if they fall there’s a high chance it will end in euthanasia.

Better not let them out in fields either then, since thats a minefield for broken legs. Especially if another horse kicks them. Best stable them, don't exercise them, wrap them in bandages and look at them and say how pretty they are, since they're so fragile. And for goodness sake, don't let a stallion cover a mare naturally in case she kicks him!

OTOH a more practical approach would be to encourage NH racing which traditionally bred later maturing horses with stronger and thicker bone more able to withstand the pressures of exercise, encourage our many strong boned native breeds which are well designed for crossing rough moorland at speed and so on.

@Theyulelog

As someone who has worked in the industry with a wealth of equine experience I can tell you those animals are loved and cared for by all the staff on the yard, like pets. They all have pet names, lots of fuss and attention, are attended to all day and even through the night. However, they are athletes and not pets. They are bred for a job, a sport…as with all sport horses, not just racehorses. All horses that have been injured, retired etc have been sold on to horse owners who want to retrain in another sphere or go on to be used in light work in a nice home. All horses are vetted and have proper passports. Yes there will be a number of dodgey owners and trainers who have them put down, sent away for meat or what ever but I’ve Certainly never met any and they are not supported! Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that’s just my view as someone who has worked in the industry. The grand national is a tough race, most horses don’t reach that level. I much prefer flat racing for this reason. I love horses and don’t like to see injuries, and unfortunately when a horse breaks a bone in the leg or pelvis etc there is nothing else that can be done. Have your view, fine but please don’t say things like the stable staff are barbaric because we love our animals. The whip is light weight, and jockeys are trained to use it in a way where it hits in the right place, the whip never breaks the skin and is usually just a slap down the neck or fleshy hind quarters. It’s an important aid for keeping the horse straight so they don’t run into the rail or eachother. Yes it can be overused and every jockey will be punished for that. There are rules. Whips are used in most horse disciplines.

Thank you - saved me pointing this out. Unless you actually know what goes on in racing, on yards and after racing you are throwing around wild accusations.

Fine, disagree with the race, the sport but everyone I've ever met in racing has a deep and abiding love for the animals. I've owned a couple of jump horses - both who went on to have fab retirements, one as a team chaser (he loved to jump) and one as a happy hacker. Both were entirely unsuccessful as racehorses - too slow. And as many people have said - a broken leg in a horse, any horse, is fatal. Leg injuries are common in all disciples and for non competing horses. Horses legs are complicated and injure easily.

It's why there are so many unridable, expensive lawnmowers in every field. There are 3 on my yard, all perfectly happy but not rideable due to leg injuries sustained doing 1. hacking 2. Messing about in the field 3. No idea - maybe a kick? Just went lame. Many "normal" horses are also shot if their leg injuries are too severe and... if people can't afford to have an unridable horse for the next 20 years.

Jump horses tend to race for years and years and almost all absolutely love the job. Until you've ridden a racehorse at a gallop and experienced the sheer joy they get out of it it's hard to describe how thoroughbreds are born to gallop and jump.

I ride an ex racer and she loves nothing more than miles of good grass/tracks for her to let down and fly and fly she does. She enjoys it even more than I do.

I'm less of fan of flat racing... but that a different thread.

I completely understand why people object to the race and the sport - I just actually know what goes on and it's not a "blood sport" or barbaric.

@Antarcticant

Nobody said it was. It's a discussion about the GN though, not about animal welfare in general. Perhaps you misread?

I don't think it's a subject you can silo.

One is about an essential industry, the other is about a leisure pursuit, that often ends with the death of the participating animals.

Not against horse racing per se but jump racing needs to go, same as Dog fighting etc.

Horses don’t love running, nor do they hate it. They are prey animals & when their flight response is triggered, they run.

@Moanranger

Horses don’t love running, nor do they hate it. They are prey animals & when their flight response is triggered, they run.

Tell my cob that as you point her at a cross country course.

@SucculentChalice

Hortensiateapot Bearing this in mind, it makes horse racing even more cruel, pushing animals to the limits of their physical pattern, over using whips etc. knowing that if they fall there’s a high chance it will end in euthanasia.

Better not let them out in fields either then, since thats a minefield for broken legs. Especially if another horse kicks them. Best stable them, don't exercise them, wrap them in bandages and look at them and say how pretty they are, since they're so fragile. And for goodness sake, don't let a stallion cover a mare naturally in case she kicks him!

OTOH a more practical approach would be to encourage NH racing which traditionally bred later maturing horses with stronger and thicker bone more able to withstand the pressures of exercise, encourage our many strong boned native breeds which are well designed for crossing rough moorland at speed and so on.

I’m not talking about wrapping every horse in bubble wrap, I think actually we are making the same point… throwing 40 thoroughbreds around an exhausting course with massive jumps where multiple fallers and a death or two are expected is unethical in my opinion.

@Moanranger

Horses don’t love running, nor do they hate it. They are prey animals & when their flight response is triggered, they run.

Horses do not live in a constant state of flight or flight. No prey animal does. That is a survival instinct which is triggered when the need arises.

Alexandra2001

One is about an essential industry, the other is about a leisure pursuit, that often ends with the death of the participating animals.

The meat industry is not essential, and ALWAYS entails the death of the participating animal.

@DrDinosaur

I admit I know nothing about racing or horses, but I enjoy watching and betting on the Grand National. It would seem to me very unlikely that racehorses are generally anything other than very well looked after, given how much money is invested in them. I presume all the posters objecting are vegan and don't keep pets. The rest of us are happy to use animals to enhance human lives, whether that's enjoying a good steak or watching an exciting race - I can't see any moral difference between those things.

It depends on your definition of well looked after - yes, they are looked after so they can race but that doesn't mean all their physical or mental needs are being met.

If racing was to continue with welfare at the heart of it then there would need to major overhauls including not riding them until physically mature and being responsible for their welfare at the end of their career (bearing in mind many don't even have a first race).

As it currently stands then I genuinely don't know how anyone can support horseracing and say they love horses.

I think the whole thing should be banned. It’s disgusting cruelty.

I think the whip should be banned. My comment about "the other jockeys" was intended to point out that there would have been the chance for those not using a whip winning, without the brutal use of it.