GRAND NATIONAL

[PIPSUE]

AIBU to think that a £400 fine for excessive use of a whip by a jockey is not enough. In this case, the jockey was the winner and received £560000. I think he should lose his place to the second finisher, and still pay the £400 fine, otherwise it isn't fair on the other jockeys in the face.

@WiddlinDiddlin

It's dead easy to say 'it should be banned'.. the bottom line is, it won't be, it makes far too much revenue in so many areas of the industry.

So campaign for change and do so with actual knowledge - so many people shouting about it know nothing, as is evidenced by this thread!

People campaigned to make fences safer to reduce falls - great, but that also made the race faster, which increased the danger.

People (rightly) made a fuss about whip use - and it is now better monitored.

You do need to understand how the whip can be used and how it can't though - it can be used to hit the horse on the shoulder, or behind the saddle - that should be (their words not mine!) to back up a request for the horse to speed up or move over that was given by a weight shift or rein aid. It can be used to wave alongside the horses face again to get him to speed up or move over.

Travelling at that speed around a course like that when you have only your weight and the reins to steer with (yes they have their legs but in the position they're in, that isn't overly effective)... it isn't wholly unreasonable to want some other way of preventing horses crashing into one another or crowding one another into the railings or wings.

But its use is closely monitored, so hitting a horse that has already responded to another aid or hasn't been given opportunity to respond, or a horse who has nothing left to give, is already clearly going to win or stands zero chance, or too many times in a row OR within the entire race IS penalised and for many amateur jockeys, that fine and that ban is a serious consideration.

Even the whips themselves are strictly controlled re weight, length and design - there is ONE supplier, they are not like any other whip you might see horse riders used, they're effectively a flexible stick, covered in foam padding down the entire length except for the bit in the riders hand. Kids in pony club wield nastier whips (and shouldn't!)

Broken legs, broken pelvises - these are injuries that many horses no matter what their job nor what they were doing at the time of injury, will not survive. Horses are big and fragile and need to be able to stand and move freely and well balanced. Attempts to save horses with limb/foot injuries have been made, with very often horrific welfare implications (and in the cases im thinking of, it was money that drove the effort to save the horse.. not welfare).

Personally I think the qualification requirements for the National should be increased, so fewer horses get in and those who do are better equipped to run.

Also specific to the GN - reduce the number of runners, 40 runners is a HUGE reason why there are so many fallers and so many accidents. Reduce it to 25.

Across the board, here is one change that would dramatically improve horses lives in racing...

The ages of ALL horses entering training (whether thats flat or NH) should be increased by 2 years, meaning flat would not start training til 3.5 rather than 18 months, and similarly upping the age they can first race. Typically jumpers aren't trained til 3/4 and raced til 4/5 anyway - but upping that age all round would make significant changes - people would breed far fewer horses if they had to hang on to them a year or two longer, horses would break down far less often and stay in racing longer and stand a better chance of a useful career later on in life.

This is an excellent, intelligent and knowledgeable post.

Quoting to highlight it so it doesn’t get lost. I agree whole heartedly with everything you’ve said.

@WiddlinDiddlin great post. Thanks

@Lineofconcepcion

I suppose if there were no racing, these horses wouldn't exist.

And the world wouldn't miss them would it?

@WiddlinDiddlin

It's dead easy to say 'it should be banned'.. the bottom line is, it won't be, it makes far too much revenue in so many areas of the industry.

So campaign for change and do so with actual knowledge - so many people shouting about it know nothing, as is evidenced by this thread!

People campaigned to make fences safer to reduce falls - great, but that also made the race faster, which increased the danger.

People (rightly) made a fuss about whip use - and it is now better monitored.

You do need to understand how the whip can be used and how it can't though - it can be used to hit the horse on the shoulder, or behind the saddle - that should be (their words not mine!) to back up a request for the horse to speed up or move over that was given by a weight shift or rein aid. It can be used to wave alongside the horses face again to get him to speed up or move over.

Travelling at that speed around a course like that when you have only your weight and the reins to steer with (yes they have their legs but in the position they're in, that isn't overly effective)... it isn't wholly unreasonable to want some other way of preventing horses crashing into one another or crowding one another into the railings or wings.

But its use is closely monitored, so hitting a horse that has already responded to another aid or hasn't been given opportunity to respond, or a horse who has nothing left to give, is already clearly going to win or stands zero chance, or too many times in a row OR within the entire race IS penalised and for many amateur jockeys, that fine and that ban is a serious consideration.

Even the whips themselves are strictly controlled re weight, length and design - there is ONE supplier, they are not like any other whip you might see horse riders used, they're effectively a flexible stick, covered in foam padding down the entire length except for the bit in the riders hand. Kids in pony club wield nastier whips (and shouldn't!)

Broken legs, broken pelvises - these are injuries that many horses no matter what their job nor what they were doing at the time of injury, will not survive. Horses are big and fragile and need to be able to stand and move freely and well balanced. Attempts to save horses with limb/foot injuries have been made, with very often horrific welfare implications (and in the cases im thinking of, it was money that drove the effort to save the horse.. not welfare).

Personally I think the qualification requirements for the National should be increased, so fewer horses get in and those who do are better equipped to run.

Also specific to the GN - reduce the number of runners, 40 runners is a HUGE reason why there are so many fallers and so many accidents. Reduce it to 25.

Across the board, here is one change that would dramatically improve horses lives in racing...

The ages of ALL horses entering training (whether thats flat or NH) should be increased by 2 years, meaning flat would not start training til 3.5 rather than 18 months, and similarly upping the age they can first race. Typically jumpers aren't trained til 3/4 and raced til 4/5 anyway - but upping that age all round would make significant changes - people would breed far fewer horses if they had to hang on to them a year or two longer, horses would break down far less often and stay in racing longer and stand a better chance of a useful career later on in life.

👏👏 excellent post.

I used to love betting on and watching the horses..... Until I came across Racehorse Death Watch..... Haven't entertained it since.... www.horsedeathwatch.com/

@WiddlinDiddlin

It's dead easy to say 'it should be banned'.. the bottom line is, it won't be, it makes far too much revenue in so many areas of the industry.

So campaign for change and do so with actual knowledge - so many people shouting about it know nothing, as is evidenced by this thread!

People campaigned to make fences safer to reduce falls - great, but that also made the race faster, which increased the danger.

People (rightly) made a fuss about whip use - and it is now better monitored.

You do need to understand how the whip can be used and how it can't though - it can be used to hit the horse on the shoulder, or behind the saddle - that should be (their words not mine!) to back up a request for the horse to speed up or move over that was given by a weight shift or rein aid. It can be used to wave alongside the horses face again to get him to speed up or move over.

Travelling at that speed around a course like that when you have only your weight and the reins to steer with (yes they have their legs but in the position they're in, that isn't overly effective)... it isn't wholly unreasonable to want some other way of preventing horses crashing into one another or crowding one another into the railings or wings.

But its use is closely monitored, so hitting a horse that has already responded to another aid or hasn't been given opportunity to respond, or a horse who has nothing left to give, is already clearly going to win or stands zero chance, or too many times in a row OR within the entire race IS penalised and for many amateur jockeys, that fine and that ban is a serious consideration.

Even the whips themselves are strictly controlled re weight, length and design - there is ONE supplier, they are not like any other whip you might see horse riders used, they're effectively a flexible stick, covered in foam padding down the entire length except for the bit in the riders hand. Kids in pony club wield nastier whips (and shouldn't!)

Broken legs, broken pelvises - these are injuries that many horses no matter what their job nor what they were doing at the time of injury, will not survive. Horses are big and fragile and need to be able to stand and move freely and well balanced. Attempts to save horses with limb/foot injuries have been made, with very often horrific welfare implications (and in the cases im thinking of, it was money that drove the effort to save the horse.. not welfare).

Personally I think the qualification requirements for the National should be increased, so fewer horses get in and those who do are better equipped to run.

Also specific to the GN - reduce the number of runners, 40 runners is a HUGE reason why there are so many fallers and so many accidents. Reduce it to 25.

Across the board, here is one change that would dramatically improve horses lives in racing...

The ages of ALL horses entering training (whether thats flat or NH) should be increased by 2 years, meaning flat would not start training til 3.5 rather than 18 months, and similarly upping the age they can first race. Typically jumpers aren't trained til 3/4 and raced til 4/5 anyway - but upping that age all round would make significant changes - people would breed far fewer horses if they had to hang on to them a year or two longer, horses would break down far less often and stay in racing longer and stand a better chance of a useful career later on in life.

People can still think it should be banned even though it won't because of greed, capitalism, and what a shocker- humans profiting from the abuse of animals. None of those mitigations make it fairer on horses really, who have no choice on whether they want to compete, its still weird and exploitative and they'd be put in place just to reduce needless deaths when stopping it would increase them even further.

Decrease them*

@SucculentChalice yep total virtue signalling and this thread always pops up once a year, by people who have no clue about horses.

And yep, a previous poster talking shite about most racehorses ended up in the slaughter horse. Not true at all!
That is why the show ring is filled with thoroughbreds who have never even raced before. If they are no good from the get go there is a total blank canvas to work with, they can go on to do so many other things!

They’ll run out of steam stop eventually. Sometimes they can be directed off the course into the breaks and then caught, but it’s often safest to just wait til they stop

Yes I suppose it is, they do seem to cause and be in danger running along like that but I suppose they're doing as much as they can. I wonder if there are grooms with buckets of horse feed on the course at the end trying to catch them.

Thanks for replying to my question, anybody who did so

Exploitation of horses happens across the board, and racing is by no means the biggest culprit in terms of volume of horses. Casual abuse and lack of care happens every day in private horse ownership and the leisure riding industry but it doesn't look as dramatic as racing and it's not on TV so nobody recognises it or talks about it.

Quite often, those people who shout about the Grand National will take their DC to riding schools that are shoddily run, where the horses and ponies have a crap quality of life and just plod round nose to tail for 4-5 hours a day in the same boring arena. They'll go to trekking centres on holiday when they've got no clue how to ride, but "sure, how difficult can it be? You just sit there, right?" And they'll slump along like sacks of spuds on bored, uncomfortable animals wearing badly fitting saddles and won't think anything of it. They'll see the pony out in the field in the summer and feed it treats with absolute disregard for the terrible ill effects this can have. They'll see the enormously overweight person out hacking on a struggling horse but won't say anything because that horse is just plodding along, not racing, so it must be fine. They'll see horses and ponies being over or under rugged, over or under fed, left in fields full of ragwort and poorly managed by well meaning but incompetent owners and they won't recognise any of those things as being unacceptable cruelty.

Poor welfare and abuse of horses is rife in private horse ownership and the leisure riding industries, but everyone's too busy shouting about the racing industry, where the horses are, at least, generally cared for by competent, knowledgeable people, and so the casual abuse continues unnoticed and unchecked. You see it on this very forum, adoring parents who know nothing about horses wanting to buy a pony for their DC and figuring they'll just learn how to look after it once it arrives. If you're calling for horse racing to be banned, then also call for licensing for horse ownership and a proof of knowledge and competency exam to be passed before people are granted it, tighter restrictions on the welfare of horses in riding schools and trekking centres and a limit to the number of years they are allowed to do it for (because make no mistake, it is a hard and boring life for them), tighter control on the number of stables livery yards can offer out to people compared to their grazing provision, so they can't maximise profits by cramming as many horses as possible into a small space with no herd turnout and the only grazing available being tiny 1/4 acre sections that turn into mud patches within a matter of weeks so horses can't indulge natural behaviours and wander, graze or play, just stand in their miserable mud section for a few hours with a pile of hay (if they're lucky) and then get brought back into their stable. Spot check owners and riding establishments to ensure they're removing ragwort and other poisonous weeds from their grazing, not allowing it to grow rampant on otherwise bare paddocks. Require people to undergo financial checks before they take on a horse to ensure they can afford it, make insurance compulsory and demand providers supply adequate cover so that horses aren't destroyed because owners can't afford costly veterinary bills. But who is going to do all of that? No one. So it's easier to shout about racing.

@toastfiend

Exploitation of horses happens across the board, and racing is by no means the biggest culprit in terms of volume of horses. Casual abuse and lack of care happens every day in private horse ownership and the leisure riding industry but it doesn't look as dramatic as racing and it's not on TV so nobody recognises it or talks about it.

Quite often, those people who shout about the Grand National will take their DC to riding schools that are shoddily run, where the horses and ponies have a crap quality of life and just plod round nose to tail for 4-5 hours a day in the same boring arena. They'll go to trekking centres on holiday when they've got no clue how to ride, but "sure, how difficult can it be? You just sit there, right?" And they'll slump along like sacks of spuds on bored, uncomfortable animals wearing badly fitting saddles and won't think anything of it. They'll see the pony out in the field in the summer and feed it treats with absolute disregard for the terrible ill effects this can have. They'll see the enormously overweight person out hacking on a struggling horse but won't say anything because that horse is just plodding along, not racing, so it must be fine. They'll see horses and ponies being over or under rugged, over or under fed, left in fields full of ragwort and poorly managed by well meaning but incompetent owners and they won't recognise any of those things as being unacceptable cruelty.

Poor welfare and abuse of horses is rife in private horse ownership and the leisure riding industries, but everyone's too busy shouting about the racing industry, where the horses are, at least, generally cared for by competent, knowledgeable people, and so the casual abuse continues unnoticed and unchecked. You see it on this very forum, adoring parents who know nothing about horses wanting to buy a pony for their DC and figuring they'll just learn how to look after it once it arrives. If you're calling for horse racing to be banned, then also call for licensing for horse ownership and a proof of knowledge and competency exam to be passed before people are granted it, tighter restrictions on the welfare of horses in riding schools and trekking centres and a limit to the number of years they are allowed to do it for (because make no mistake, it is a hard and boring life for them), tighter control on the number of stables livery yards can offer out to people compared to their grazing provision, so they can't maximise profits by cramming as many horses as possible into a small space with no herd turnout and the only grazing available being tiny 1/4 acre sections that turn into mud patches within a matter of weeks so horses can't indulge natural behaviours and wander, graze or play, just stand in their miserable mud section for a few hours with a pile of hay (if they're lucky) and then get brought back into their stable. Spot check owners and riding establishments to ensure they're removing ragwort and other poisonous weeds from their grazing, not allowing it to grow rampant on otherwise bare paddocks. Require people to undergo financial checks before they take on a horse to ensure they can afford it, make insurance compulsory and demand providers supply adequate cover so that horses aren't destroyed because owners can't afford costly veterinary bills. But who is going to do all of that? No one. So it's easier to shout about racing.

It's all weird and exploitative really- humans thinking they can have ownership over other sentient beings for their own wants and/or to make money. Gross. I don't think though ah well they're abused in this way too is a good rationale for it being fine- odd thought process. And no I'm not perfect but I don't have pets and don't eat meat or consume animal products such as dairy or wear animal skins because I believe that's also weird and a cruel industry.

@Patchbatch nowhere did I say it's fine? I suggested that if people are campaigning to ban racing then they should also campaign against these things too because they are far more prevalent and far more damaging overall. Most won't, though, because they're not actually interested enough to learn about them and doing so might impinge on their ability take their DCs to riding schools guilt-free. Racing is an easy target for those with strong opinions loosely held.

[quote toastfiend]@Patchbatch nowhere did I say it's fine? I suggested that if people are campaigning to ban racing then they should also campaign against these things too because they are far more prevalent and far more damaging overall. Most won't, though, because they're not actually interested enough to learn about them and doing so might impinge on their ability take their DCs to riding schools guilt-free. Racing is an easy target for those with strong opinions loosely held.[/quote]
How many people do you think who find racing abhorrent take their children to horse riding? Honestly? It's a ridiculous argument really and in doing so does suggest nah don't bother unless you're going to be outraged about everything. Racing is an easy target because its vile.

Quite a few, actually, if my time liverying and/or working at various riding schools is remotely representative, but we'll agree to disagree. I don't think you've really understood me, perhaps I've not explained myself well, perhaps you've not taken any time to consider. I think there are worse and more prevalent abuses and neglect of horses more deserving of condemnation than racing. Unfortunately they are not in the public eye and so they will never change, which is a great shame.

@toastfiend

Quite a few, actually, if my time liverying and/or working at various riding schools is remotely representative, but we'll agree to disagree. I don't think you've really understood me, perhaps I've not explained myself well, perhaps you've not taken any time to consider. I think there are worse and more prevalent abuses and neglect of horses more deserving of condemnation than racing. Unfortunately they are not in the public eye and so they will never change, which is a great shame.

Probably just move in different circles, lots of people did it when I was at school, I don't know any now- but you made money from the exploitation of horses so I suspect we will disagree.

@Patchbatch that's as maybe, but having taken horses from situations of neglect and invested a significant amount of my own time, money and love into improving their situations, I'd also bet that I've done more tangible good for horses than you ever have.

[quote toastfiend]@Patchbatch that's as maybe, but having taken horses from situations of neglect and invested a significant amount of my own time, money and love into improving their situations, I'd also bet that I've done more tangible good for horses than you ever have.[/quote]
Ah the neglect they suffer because of the type of industry you used to work in? Being part of the solution isn't really that commendable when you're also part of the cause. Anyway, this isn't going to go anywhere is it.

You've no idea where those horses came from, bar the ones off the track that I mentioned above. Private homes are the biggest source of neglect. That's not an industry that I worked in, although I have kept horses privately mine were not neglected.

And no, I don't think it is going anywhere. I don't think you really understand anything about horses, bar the fact that you disagree with those who keep or interact with them, so it's difficult to have any kind of reasoned discussion with you because you fundamentally don't understand and don't wish to understand.

Racing is a hugely regulated industry meaning that the fatality statistics are there for everyone to see.l which doesn't happen in any other equestrian sport (as far as I am aware). There was a high profile fatality at an eventing competition on the same day as the national but seemingly no one gives any shits about those horses. There were no protests or press coverage the year that three horses were killed at Badminton that I can recall. Racing being a comparatively transparent equine sport means the focus is there.

Like it or not, equine medicine and treatments wouldn't be as advanced as it is now without the investment and research from the industry.

The four dead horses bother me more.

WiddlingDiddlin Personally I think the qualification requirements for the National should be increased, so fewer horses get in and those who do are better equipped to run.

A great idea, worth repeating. I was shocked by the number of fallers early on this year. Although to be fair, only one of them was badly hurt I believe. But perhaps there should be a jumping test or a qualification? And while the top jockeys are brilliant, some of them are pretty horrendous at setting their horse up for a fence. That said, I watched a recording of one of Red Rum's Grand Nationals on You Tube and some of the falls there were hideous. There was one horse who fell on his neck over the Chair the second time after the jockey fired him at the steepest part of the fence and then let go of the reins to save himself for the inevitable fall. It was horrible. So things have improved, although its still too fast at the beginning.

Also specific to the GN - reduce the number of runners, 40 runners is a HUGE reason why there are so many fallers and so many accidents. Reduce it to 25.

Or even 30 would be an improvement.

Across the board, here is one change that would dramatically improve horses lives in racing...

The ages of ALL horses entering training (whether thats flat or NH) should be increased by 2 years, meaning flat would not start training til 3.5 rather than 18 months, and similarly upping the age they can first race. Typically jumpers aren't trained til 3/4 and raced til 4/5 anyway - but upping that age all round would make significant changes - people would breed far fewer horses if they had to hang on to them a year or two longer, horses would break down far less often and stay in racing longer and stand a better chance of a useful career later on in life.

I'm a racing fan and I would love for this to happen. Unfortunately it won't because breeders want to get a quick return for their money, as do all of the sales agents, sales agencies, stallion promoters, etc.. Horse racing when it first developed was for older horses running over longer distances more slowly. Now its moving towards quick maturing 2 year olds and sprint and mile bred 3 year olds and a Derby winner is considered unmarketable as a flat stallion and gelded (Serpentine) or marketed at the NH market.

tbh I find endless identikit inbred sprint and mile bays racing flashing past in a blur boring. What I do watch is the staying flat races with older horses you can follow or the NH horses with proper old fashioned staying types who take time to mature. Theres a reason why so many of them have French names now though - the UK is barely breeding for the NH market any more.

But oh gawd the annual display of virtue signalling and lack of understanding of how well competition horses are treated is ignorance at its worst. The same people probably think nothing of squeezing their bulk onto a tiny donkey on holiday or walk past the local field full of inbred cobs in a sea of mud behind a barbed wire fence and think their staring coats look cute and fluffy...

But oh gawd the annual display of virtue signalling and lack of understanding of how well competition horses are treated is ignorance at its worst. The same people probably think nothing of squeezing their bulk onto a tiny donkey on holiday or walk past the local field full of inbred cobs in a sea of mud behind a barbed wire fence and think their staring coats look cute and fluffy...

Sure, assume that if it makes you feel better :)

@Patchbatch

But oh gawd the annual display of virtue signalling and lack of understanding of how well competition horses are treated is ignorance at its worst. The same people probably think nothing of squeezing their bulk onto a tiny donkey on holiday or walk past the local field full of inbred cobs in a sea of mud behind a barbed wire fence and think their staring coats look cute and fluffy...

Sure, assume that if it makes you feel better :)

Its not an assumption. I was actually involved in rescuing a pony in the circumstances I describe, which was in a field next to a busy footpath used by loads of people every single day. The number of people unable to understand what real horse welfare issues actually look like, beyond the fluffy coat, was absolutely horrific. Its still going on, to some extent. The RSPCA are useless.

I am not saying banning horse racing. I am saying it is hard to defend it. I stand by my statement. I go to a lot of shows, Eventing, etc, and rarely do you see off the track thoroughbreds. Which is not to say they don’t exist, but not very common. They are rarely seen in Eventing as they lack bone for cross country & usually struggle with dressage.
I believe welfare organisations have crunched the numbers, but way more foals produced than are then still actually alive & active 4-5 years later.
I think it is acceptable to put a horse down that can no longer be ridden, but the blood industry is in effect breeding horses that are more likely than not going to be put down when still young. I am not comfortable with this. And other horse sport breeders are not doing this.

I admit I know nothing about racing or horses, but I enjoy watching and betting on the Grand National.
It would seem to me very unlikely that racehorses are generally anything other than very well looked after, given how much money is invested in them.
I presume all the posters objecting are vegan and don't keep pets. The rest of us are happy to use animals to enhance human lives, whether that's enjoying a good steak or watching an exciting race - I can't see any moral difference between those things.