GRAND NATIONAL

[PIPSUE]

AIBU to think that a £400 fine for excessive use of a whip by a jockey is not enough. In this case, the jockey was the winner and received £560000. I think he should lose his place to the second finisher, and still pay the £400 fine, otherwise it isn't fair on the other jockeys in the face.

Another died died during treatment at an Equine hospital after falling and damaging his head at the third fence in the National. \The race claimed two hoses this year.

As someone who has worked in the industry with a wealth of equine experience I can tell you those animals are loved and cared for by all the staff on the yard, like pets. They all have pet names, lots of fuss and attention, are attended to all day and even through the night.
However, they are athletes and not pets. They are bred for a job, a sport…as with all sport horses, not just racehorses.
All horses that have been injured, retired etc have been sold on to horse owners who want to retrain in another sphere or go on to be used in light work in a nice home. All horses are vetted and have proper passports.
Yes there will be a number of dodgey owners and trainers who have them put down, sent away for meat or what ever but I’ve
Certainly never met any and they are not supported!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that’s just my view as someone who has worked in the industry.
The grand national is a tough race, most horses don’t reach that level.
I much prefer flat racing for this reason. I love horses and don’t like to see injuries, and unfortunately when a horse breaks a bone in the leg or pelvis etc there is nothing else that can be done.
Have your view, fine but please don’t say things like the stable staff are barbaric because we love our animals.
The whip is light weight, and jockeys are trained to use it in a way where it hits in the right place, the whip never breaks the skin and is usually just a slap down the neck or fleshy hind quarters. It’s an important aid for keeping the horse straight so they don’t run into the rail or eachother. Yes it can be overused and every jockey will be punished for that. There are rules. Whips are used in most horse disciplines.

As someone who has worked in the industry with a wealth of equine experience I can tell you those animals are loved and cared for by all the staff on the yard, like pets.

Unless you are on every year at every point in time you cannot tell us anything or the sort.

Every yard

@bluebaul Like I said in my experience all our horses have been loved and cared for.
I can only go on what I’ve experienced.
Ive seen some nasty things outside of the sport including in an equine college, livery yards. There are some cruel bastards out there and they are not supported.
I couldn’t own a horse and send
It in the grand national personally because of the risks…there are owners
And trainers who obviously will but those stable staff who care, ride and feed these animals everyday have a massive bond with them and only want them to be safe. Coming home in an empty horse box is not what anyone wants.
Ive re homes a few racehorses in my time. One was an ex racehorse who didn’t enjoy racing, we bred her and she was an amazing mother who thrived. She was then brought into light work and loved nothing more than going out hacking, she hated competing. Ive had others who love competing and jumping. They are all different but there is always a place in this world for them.
I’m not saying it’s totally cruelty free, I’m sure it happens but I’ve never met anyone in the racing industry that’s just shot horses for the sake of it etc. Never once….I have however met people that have done this outside the industry.

I watched the Grand National yesterday - which were the two horses that died? I can only find one - it wasn't the one behind the screens at Fence 3, it was the one who was pulled up at about Fence 12 which had sustained an untreatable pelvic injury and had to be put down.

I'm not defending racing - I'm not sure I can, in my heart - but I really feel it's wrong to say that the horses are put down for financial reasons only. I've had horses all my life, and (as others have said) an injury such as a leg break simply isn't treatable in 99% of cases. Keeping a horse on three legs while it heals is difficult, and leads to further problems in the other limbs and other complications. Read about a horse called Barbaro, a Kentucky Derby winner, who had hundreds of thousands of dollars in various surgeries when he broke his leg, and ended up with laminitis and other complications and had to be put down some months later anyway. If you really care about a horse's welfare, that certainly isn't the way you'd want to see one treated.

Edit - I've just seen the update about the horse at the third Fence - I'll take that bit back then.

Something that always worries me about the grand National (we'll all racing probably)
Is what happens to the horses that keep on racing when their riders fall off.
It always looks really dangerous that they're careering along there with no guidance.
Are there systems in place for them to be collected and kept safe?

Sorry if that's a daft question but it bothers me hugely and I thought somebody on here might know.

Love National Hunt racing but I am into most equestrian sports, however I do agree the fine is insufficient.

There are run off areas in the National fences to try and encourage loose horses not to follow the field for the poster that asked.

The whole thing is horrible :(

Horses tend to want to stay with their herd, so if the rider is unseated and the horse is still with the pack it will stay with them. There are generally people on calm horses dotted around the racecourse at strategic points for loose horses to hopefully join, but they don't always choose to. Not easy to catch any horse on foot and any corral would be potentially dangerous/another fence to jump...

A proper fracture of a long bone is not possible to heal in a horse, regardless of the money thrown at it.

Horses need to stand up and move or their guts stop working, if they're lying down for too long (in an operation under GA for instance) their own weight can damage nerves and stop legs working.

If weight isn't on all 4 feet the bones of the feet will come through the bottom of the hooves on the other 3 legs.

Horses (and similar prey animals like antelope) have long spindly fairly fragile legs so they can run fast. If the can't run fast they're dinner (hence why foals are basically all legs when they come out) so the ability to survive on 3 legs for a period of time is not something that has developed.

People have attempted to save horses with major leg injuries money no object, they have not succeeded as yet that I'm aware of - and ethically the outcomes in these cases are worse than a quick death on the race course!

I suppose if there were no racing, these horses wouldn't exist.

I have owned horses most of my life & am not sentimental, BUT horse racing, both flat & National Hunt, makes me very uneasy. A couple of the defenders upthread have spouted nonsense: sure, horses in race training are treated well, but the vast majority have short professional careers, and only a tiny number get successfully retrained after they stop racing. The statistics on this come from the industry itself: many thousands of foals produced, but only a few hundred, low thousands get re-trained. It is a fact that most unsuccessful racing horses end up slaughtered. National hunt horses fare slightly better, as they can be used for hunting & point to point, and there are fewer of them produced. Horse-racing is not defensible.

@Moanranger

I have owned horses most of my life & am not sentimental, BUT horse racing, both flat & National Hunt, makes me very uneasy. A couple of the defenders upthread have spouted nonsense: sure, horses in race training are treated well, but the vast majority have short professional careers, and only a tiny number get successfully retrained after they stop racing. The statistics on this come from the industry itself: many thousands of foals produced, but only a few hundred, low thousands get re-trained. It is a fact that most unsuccessful racing horses end up slaughtered. National hunt horses fare slightly better, as they can be used for hunting & point to point, and there are fewer of them produced. Horse-racing is not defensible.

I think you're spouting nonsense too.

Can I ask where you're getting the statistics on those who are successfully retrained from? There's no repository (that I'm aware of) that holds the data on all those that have been retrained/rehomed privately? Passports, yes, but that's relying on people updating them, which they often don't. There's ROR, sure, but I never did that with any of mine and it doesn't cover those who are happy hackers/hunters etc. How is it possible to know? The RSPCA themselves admit that they don't really have a clue as there is no current traceability system for racehorses leaving racing (which is wrong, there absolutely should be). My Dad's racehorses retired home to us. Barring the ones that went point-to-pointing, no one would ever be able to trace them to add them to any statistics.

Race horses are extremely well looked after and are bred for running. When a jockey falls off they carry on racing without the rider so they are in no way distressed or being forced to run.

Always baffles me with how appallingly other animals are treated that people are actually concerned about horses jumping over a few fences.

@Nat94

Race horses are extremely well looked after and are bred for running. When a jockey falls off they carry on racing without the rider so they are in no way distressed or being forced to run.

Always baffles me with how appallingly other animals are treated that people are actually concerned about horses jumping over a few fences.

This kind of ignorance is dangerous. Horses do move when in pain ffs.

@TurningUpMyStereotype

I love how all these people who care SO DEEPLY about horse welfare all show up to object to it, only ever on national weekend. Where are you the rest of the year?? Oh yeah, you don’t care.

Cant speak for others but I’m campaigning, looking after our rescue animals and volunteering at a shelter all year round. Thinks like the grand national do tend to focus people’s minds and any awareness is good.

If you work all year round to deal with animal cruelty, I’m not talking about you.

I’m talking about the kind of people who choose to post on SM about how much they hate the GN, but then don’t mention a horse the rest of the year.

@bluebaul

And in any case even if people did only start to object because of the GN do what? There has to be a starting point, for all. Surely the more people objecting, the better?

Objecting on social media does precisely nothing. I didn’t say those who have just realised this weekend, I said the people who year on year only ever have anything to say about the horrors of horse racing on this weekend. Performative nonsense.

@LeggyLinda

Absolutely no basis whatsoever. Like I said, I have no knowledge of horse racing. But, the amount of news stories I hear about horses being put down for a broken leg etc makes me feel they could be healed if money wasn’t the driving factor. I may be totally wrong (and probably am). But, I don’t think it is a justifiable reason to put an animal down.

You’re wrong. Horses can’t recover from a broken leg. They’re not like dogs or cats than can manage on 3 legs.

@Partyatnumber10

Something that always worries me about the grand National (we'll all racing probably) Is what happens to the horses that keep on racing when their riders fall off. It always looks really dangerous that they're careering along there with no guidance. Are there systems in place for them to be collected and kept safe?

Sorry if that's a daft question but it bothers me hugely and I thought somebody on here might know.

They’ll run out of steam stop eventually. Sometimes they can be directed off the course into the breaks and then caught, but it’s often safest to just wait til they stop.

Theres far far worse animal cruelty, and indeed horse cruelty, than horse racing. But always these threads once per year because people who have no bloody interest in animal welfare or horse racing the rest of the year want to virtue signal how much they "care" about animals, when in reality they wouldn't know enough to recognise whether a pony in the field next to their house was being well cared for or not.

PETA is the organisation that gets me. Any high publicity international bandwagon they can jump on they are on it, but they completely ignore the massive problems in the United States, which exports horses to "kill pens" in Canada, where they are often left with broken legs and untended wounds.

@LeggyLinda

Absolutely no basis whatsoever. Like I said, I have no knowledge of horse racing. But, the amount of news stories I hear about horses being put down for a broken leg etc makes me feel they could be healed if money wasn’t the driving factor. I may be totally wrong (and probably am). But, I don’t think it is a justifiable reason to put an animal down.

Nothing to do with money, vets, etc. a horse with a broken leg will, unfortunately, never have a good life. It’s a shit outcome, but euthanasia is the kindest outcome. It doesn’t make everything that “cane before” ok. But it’s the kindest thing to do in the circumstance.

It should be banned all together.

Thanks for insights, @Theyulelog

It's dead easy to say 'it should be banned'.. the bottom line is, it won't be, it makes far too much revenue in so many areas of the industry.

So campaign for change and do so with actual knowledge - so many people shouting about it know nothing, as is evidenced by this thread!

People campaigned to make fences safer to reduce falls - great, but that also made the race faster, which increased the danger.

People (rightly) made a fuss about whip use - and it is now better monitored.

You do need to understand how the whip can be used and how it can't though - it can be used to hit the horse on the shoulder, or behind the saddle - that should be (their words not mine!) to back up a request for the horse to speed up or move over that was given by a weight shift or rein aid. It can be used to wave alongside the horses face again to get him to speed up or move over.

Travelling at that speed around a course like that when you have only your weight and the reins to steer with (yes they have their legs but in the position they're in, that isn't overly effective)... it isn't wholly unreasonable to want some other way of preventing horses crashing into one another or crowding one another into the railings or wings.

But its use is closely monitored, so hitting a horse that has already responded to another aid or hasn't been given opportunity to respond, or a horse who has nothing left to give, is already clearly going to win or stands zero chance, or too many times in a row OR within the entire race IS penalised and for many amateur jockeys, that fine and that ban is a serious consideration.

Even the whips themselves are strictly controlled re weight, length and design - there is ONE supplier, they are not like any other whip you might see horse riders used, they're effectively a flexible stick, covered in foam padding down the entire length except for the bit in the riders hand. Kids in pony club wield nastier whips (and shouldn't!)

Broken legs, broken pelvises - these are injuries that many horses no matter what their job nor what they were doing at the time of injury, will not survive. Horses are big and fragile and need to be able to stand and move freely and well balanced. Attempts to save horses with limb/foot injuries have been made, with very often horrific welfare implications (and in the cases im thinking of, it was money that drove the effort to save the horse.. not welfare).

Personally I think the qualification requirements for the National should be increased, so fewer horses get in and those who do are better equipped to run.

Also specific to the GN - reduce the number of runners, 40 runners is a HUGE reason why there are so many fallers and so many accidents. Reduce it to 25.

Across the board, here is one change that would dramatically improve horses lives in racing...

The ages of ALL horses entering training (whether thats flat or NH) should be increased by 2 years, meaning flat would not start training til 3.5 rather than 18 months, and similarly upping the age they can first race. Typically jumpers aren't trained til 3/4 and raced til 4/5 anyway - but upping that age all round would make significant changes - people would breed far fewer horses if they had to hang on to them a year or two longer, horses would break down far less often and stay in racing longer and stand a better chance of a useful career later on in life.