How do I deal with being a woman here??

[NewJobPerhaps]

I’d love your wise words on my work situation.

To start I enjoy my work, I’m paid well (very well for the sector and probably a lot more than I’d get elsewhere) and I don’t have any financial support from elsewhere, it’s just me and my DD. Small workplace, one director, no HR.

There’s two problems:

1. I’m harassed by a regular supplier. He unnecessarily visits the office, stares at my tits, calls me ‘terms of endearment’ such as sweetie, darling, etc. and generally makes my skin crawl. The boss is aware and I’m banned from mentioning it as it makes him uncomfortable!!

1. We have an outrageous woman hating client.

At a meeting last week he actually used the words, ‘typical woman what do you expect’! My colleagues were shocked but didn’t call him out (because he’s high value client). He speaks to me like I’m there to make the tea and mostly like I’m an idiot. I’m neither.

It’s a male dominated industry but any advice? I can’t leave as I’ll never find anything as well paid and at nearly 50 I think I’ve missed the boat. Not really an AIBU but what can I do?

Just looking to rant really and ask for any coping strategies?

I had 20 years of this as I used to work in construction. I've forgotten more comebacks than I remember these days.

For the supplier I'd suggest actually saying 'You do know it is me that will be renewing this contract, or not, once this work is done?'. If you can bring this forward now, do it. Is he a rep or the boss?

For the client, 'typical woman' you need to say something like 'What, multi tasking, efficient and having to be dealing with this custerfuck [whatever is going on you need to relate to whatever the topic is and give as good as you get] with a smile. And then, move on. You need to think of a few come backs and make sure there are no more clusterfucks if that is what he is trying to pin on you.

I had a client once [in construction] that I was put next to at a meeting as all the other women were petrified of his slagging off of women in building. He of course said it straight to me 'Building, no place for women' and my reply was 'I genuinely wouldn't know I'm a civil engineer and if builders consulted us properly, less things would go wrong in the first place'. He never said it again.
I went to his office one day to see him, and his receptionist simply said to me, without prompting, 'I'm retiring in 3 months thank fuck'. Everyone knew what a knob he was and I'll bet my name was mud when he got back from that meeting as they all knew who I was.

Does this client have a boss or is he stand alone? How important is his work exactly and how long have you left to work for him?

Agree that the supplier should be changed at the first opportunity. Next time he calls you a 'term of endearment' just ask him you expect professional conduct from him or you will be looking for another supplier...

The high value client is trickier. If you manager is not prepared to face this head on can he swap you out with a male colleague? Otherwise keep the higher ground. Next time he says something sexist adopt the look of pity and say 'well, have you quite finished so we can continue?' something with a patronising flavour. I found it worked quite well.

I also work in a male dominated industry and face the same issue in a . less obvious way but it is a boys club (this includes younger colleagues) where men are assumed (not proven) to be more technical, until they need you to be and then you are wheeled out.

Unfortunately I have had two (older) non-technical female managers who were even worse. Even when you proved your abilities, in any crisis they would run to a male colleague for a technical solution, who would then come to me for help.

I witnessed this the other week at the local post office. A much older man holding up the queue and the female staff were used to him constantly going in over nothing from what I could gather. Presumably he is lonely and has nobody to talk to at home but the staff line manager needs to be stepping in.

Hope you get a better job op.

I’m also shocked by the advice to make clever jokes. We’re not in a black-and-white film, you aren’t a sassy film star, this is real life.

I respect that sometimes this does work for some women especially if/when they are beautiful (I did it myself a bit in old teens/early 20s). But it doesn't work for most women most of the time.

With old bloke you need a dedicated diary kept in your desk. Record and date everything immediately. Even that will help a bit.

With supplier, why on earth would you do anything except fire him? You are the money. Why would you give him jokes/wit?

What do you do that’s so niche you couldn’t get a similar job elsewhere?

People say this a lot but in my experience it’s rarely true.

The supplier issue should be resolvable.
I'd change supplier immediately and tell his boss why.

If you really do have to wait until the summer to do this then I'd say "this is a workplace. It's not appropriate for you to call me sweetie or darling or to stare at my chest. If you are not prepared to stop this behaviour then I will find another supplier and you will lose this business." Be direct and assertive. Don't worry about making him feel uncomfortable- he should feel uncomfortable.

With the old guy it sounds like things won't change a great deal as your boss isn't behind making any changes. It's ok to "misunderstand" what he is saying when he says sexist stuff. Or to laugh at his comments as if to assume he is joking.
Humour is probably your only real line of defence/attack unless you either refuse to deal with this particular client or leave.

On Monday say you now identify as non-binary and any reference to your female sex will be reported to the police as a non-crime hate incident or anti-trans harrassment. (I'm only half joking...)

You should not have to put up with this disgusting shit!

My way is to act utterly confused
‘Typical woman!’
‘What on earth do you mean? ’
They rarely have an answer.

‘Hey sweetie’
‘Oh hi baby girl’

Firstly, pick your battles:
Calling someone darling or love - is fine.
Many people talk like this, so it’s something you’re just going to have to suck up.
I actually know more women who speak like this than men.

Staring at someone’s tits - is not fine.
I would say simply ‘my eyes are up here’.
If you don’t feel comfortable doing that then I’d have a colleague with you and when he starts doing it they can say something there and then or wait until after you’ve gone.

Your boss needs to be much more involved.
He needs to see this behaviour with his own eyes and do something about it.
You’ll find the ‘darlings’ get a lot less if he knows you’ve put a complaint in.

For number 2 I would send the man an email explaining how his choice of words made you feel. Say that you have worked very hard to get in the position you have and you shouldn’t have to feel uncomfortable there.

Again your boss needs to be the one to have spoken to this man straight after the meeting.

Is this a job that you can easily move company?
Keep a diary and then I would tell your boss you’re considering handing in your notice in because of all these reasons - if he wants you to stay he’ll fix the problems. If he doesn’t then you’re better off leaving anyway.

"There's no such thing as a typical woman" might be a phrase that comes in handy if the 80 year-old misogynist tries that line again.

Because if he answers that in the way I think he will, you are handing him a shovel for him to dig his own hole even deeper, and your colleagues will see him for what he really is.

This is what I would do (and have done):

1. Every time your supplier calls you “sweetie”, reply with the most OTT effeminate term of “endearment” you can, e.g. “Thanks, sugar plum fairy darling”, with a grin. He will get the message without being able to dismiss you as a po-faced schoolmarm. Alternatively, say “Alright then, Mummy” and when he looks confused tell him only your mother calls you that.

2. More difficult. Whenever he speaks to you dismissively, don’t reply. Then when he says it again, say “I’m sorry, I didn’t think you would be speaking to me like that”. Alternatively, keep quiet and remind yourself that he’ll be dead soon.

More terrible advice.

OP -posters are projecting things they wish had worked for them/has worked for them in certain circumstances. It’s very unlikely these will work for you (hopefully people aren’t expecting you to take the quips seriously in which case I’m being harsh).

Raise a grievance, if they refuse to deal with it resign and go for constructive dismissal. If they have any sort of HR as soon as you make the grievance official they will know where this is going and if they have any sense they will deal with it.

“He will get the message without being able to dismiss you as a po-faced schoolmarm.”

A bad thing why? because the OP would lose the supplier’s sexual approval?
Not being desired by a creep is a good thing...

The bottom line is do you want these twats to in effect make you lose your job.

No you do not.

STOP letting them get in your head so much, they are not worth it.

In your head think what you like of them but outwardly smile with a slight head shake.

Maybe talk to your boss and emphasise the law bit rather than your own personal annoyance. It is against the law and your boss could get into trouble for turning a blind eye.

I’m also shocked by the advice to make clever jokes. We’re not in a black-and-white film, you aren’t a sassy film star, this is real life.

I'm not sure why you're shocked, because humour can be stunningly effective. Yes, legal options are available these days, but I'd only push it if I was in my 20s, with other options and not crucially dependent on the salary.

Big salaries generally mean working in male spaces. If you can't deal with low level stuff in either a matter of fact manner or a with a joke, the company find a way to ease you out. Of course there should be policies, your boss should have your back - in reality, with a big salary comes an expectation to toughen up.

Don’t play word games with the harassing supplier. If he’s making you anxious about going to work then he needs to go NOW if possible - if possible just tell a man to deal with him until he can be dumped. Is that possible? Ie you see harasser coming - you head over to John and John comes to deal.

With the client, I know people here are saying “80 year olds won’t change” but you’re not demanding he change who he is. You’re wanting him to change/moderate his behaviour - I’m sure he has to do this in many aspects of his life or he’d be in prison by now. I actually think with these men you want them to be actively a little scared of you, they’ll start joking about that instead but so what? So I think coming back with something - a hard stare, a comment like “you want to be careful saying that kind of thing Mr X” OR “god are people still trundling out that kind of nonsense?” OR “I’d rather you avoided that kind of language please” - it’s essential. They may not like it but it should help them to realise this is not a place they can get away with this. He may be a client but he’s not god and men of that age who say this crap will have been told this many times before, he’s just keeping doing it til he realises this is one of the times he can’t get away with it.

Spaceship I think it all depends on the balance of power.

Re supplier, the OP has the power to get rid. Why should she have to prepare quips about her breasts for a stranger when she can just say ‘’we’ve found another supplier more aligned with our needs”?.

Fully appreciate though that at most times and places women have been forced to use other tactics including humour. But not when they are, in fact, the boss.

Does the supplier own the company?
If not call his boss, tell them you like them as a supplier, but you really need to complain about the contact. That he does x y z and you wondered if they can sort it, rather than it getting any worse and you having to find a new supplier. If he owns it, tell him this.... Do you like the amount of money we spend with you? Well if you want it to continue, my name is X. And stop looking at my body like that. Then you don't speak. Just make eye contact and look from one eye to the other as if searching for an answer. Make he answer first. He will back down.

Agree with this below. Making a game of it saves face but you don’t need to give this inadequate service provider the gift of playing games. It’s likely to be misinterpreted apart from anything else

“Don’t play word games with the harassing supplier. If he’s making you anxious about going to work then he needs to go NOW if possible - if possible just tell a man to deal with him until he can be dumped. Is that possible? Ie you see harasser coming - you head over to John and John comes to deal. “

Have worked in a male dominated workplace all my working life (first in the mil for a couple of decades, now in the civ sector but still in a mil setting). Professional level, experienced, deemed an SME in my role. I have had more experience of direct sexism and misogyny in my civ role - which has surprised me somewhat but I have found that each time I have called it out, the direct approach works.

Supplier - look him in the eye and ask him to not use those terms. If he laughs and puts it back on you, tell him you won't stand for it and will take it further if he doesn't stop. If it doesn't stop, complain to his company and tell them that you are using another supplier.

80 year old c**t - Create a short pause after his statement. Look him directly in the eye and ask him to explain what he has just said. If he looks blankly at you, and there is an awkward silence, maintain that eye contact, and read his comment back to him, and ask him to explain what he means. He will then either dig himself into a larger hole that you can and should exploit legally, or the old bastard will back off.

Explain to your leadership that this is what you will do the next time this client breaks the law with sexism in the workplace. If they have any brains, they will back you up.

It is hugely uncomfortable but when you have done it once, you will feel able to do it when it comes up again. This has worked for me.

Do not walk away - you have earned your place there and you are as entitled to earn your living with respect and dignity as much as a man is.

Challenge this shit.

You can do it - trust me.

@NewJobPerhaps

"The boss is aware and I’m banned from mentioning it as it makes him uncomfortable!!"

Your cannot ban you from mentioning behaviour that makes you feel harassed, distressed, uncomfortable, etc.

And they have a legal duty to both protect you in the work environment as well as ensure there's respect for all employees.

I'd suggest keeping a record of such behaviours and seek legal employment advice on the matter.

Your boss is currently failing in their duty towards you and, imo, this is the biggest issue here. Your boss is the one who can effectively help you by preventing various things.

I saw a quote recently that said every time a woman stands up for herself she stands up for all women. I know that is a tall order, especially when you just want to go to work and do your job but it is completely unacceptable that this environment still exists.

Your comfort is in that the 80 year old will hopefully drop dead soon which will be a celebratory day for women everywhere. As for the other client if he calls you darling you can say "no problem sweetpea".

You can also mention to your boss that sexism in the work place cases can be heard at a tribunal. You will need written evidence though, keep a log of everything!