How do I deal with being a woman here??

[NewJobPerhaps]

I’d love your wise words on my work situation.

To start I enjoy my work, I’m paid well (very well for the sector and probably a lot more than I’d get elsewhere) and I don’t have any financial support from elsewhere, it’s just me and my DD. Small workplace, one director, no HR.

There’s two problems:

1. I’m harassed by a regular supplier. He unnecessarily visits the office, stares at my tits, calls me ‘terms of endearment’ such as sweetie, darling, etc. and generally makes my skin crawl. The boss is aware and I’m banned from mentioning it as it makes him uncomfortable!!

1. We have an outrageous woman hating client.

At a meeting last week he actually used the words, ‘typical woman what do you expect’! My colleagues were shocked but didn’t call him out (because he’s high value client). He speaks to me like I’m there to make the tea and mostly like I’m an idiot. I’m neither.

It’s a male dominated industry but any advice? I can’t leave as I’ll never find anything as well paid and at nearly 50 I think I’ve missed the boat. Not really an AIBU but what can I do?

Just looking to rant really and ask for any coping strategies?

I'm from a country where these behaviours are rife, I was brought up with them.

In my experience, the most effective thing is to call them out but while smiling. So for example, if a supplier calls you 'darling' you answer (with a big smile) 'You know, it's 2022, you could get into very big trouble for calling a woman that at work. You have heard about me too, haven't you?'

For the sexist old codger, you treat him as if he needed explaining because of his age. So if he says 'typical woman' you answer (with big smile) 'maybe of your generation, but in our generation women are perfectly competent to ....' (and big smile).

Makes them horrendously uncomfortable, and then they think again next time because they don't want to be uncomfortable (not because they've seen the error of their ways, unfortunately).

I would:

Document every single instance in a Word document with date and what was said etc. You may never use it but even the act of documenting it is a way of saying “this isn’t acceptable”.

Keep an eye on the job market, just in case.

Ignore Old Bastard Client. He’ll retire soon. Literally just pretend he doesn’t exist as much as humanly possible. Zone out when he speaks as much as you can, let others deal with him whenever you can. Pretend you’re an actress in a play to keep him from getting to you. Have a reward lined up for yourself after every meeting with him you endure.

Supplier- grey rock as much as you can, get rid the second you can.

Is the supplier part of a bigger company or a one man band?
Have you complained to his company?

Well done to your nephew btw!
Swap supplier asap, pity the 80year old, don’t let boss silence you on important issues. Good luck.

These men don’t behave like this with everyone, everywhere and all the time.

They deliberately take advantage and exploit certain situations - in this case it’s a lone woman without an audience.

The 80 year old was 60 in 2002 - his behaviour wasn’t acceptable then and he knows it.

You can choose to be direct and assertive once to each of these characters and see how it goes - it won’t be the first time in their lives that they were told to behave and they most likely will.

And / or you can go to your boss and ask them to step in on your behalf as they have a legal obligation to you as an employer to protect you from harassment.

Really your boss should be supporting you, instead of shutting you down. It's a 3 man problem you have, not 2. It's called the patriarchy. I agree going the legal route will probably derail your career and cause you more stress. Try to change what you can and accept the rest. What choices do you have in reality? I think you could say, stop calling me darling, etc. He probably would enjoy the attention from a 'feisty' female, though, as he is a dickhead. The best way to deal with assholes is to get away from them. To validate you, what the 2 men are saying to you is wrong and unacceptable. Particularly the sexualised comments, gross. The 80 year old is not going to change.

I have worked in male dominated industries before and had arsehole sexist clients and colleagues.
My advice is stand up for yourself. So if they say “typical woman” reply with “typical man”. If you feel this is too strong then ask them to clarify/repeat - they won’t.

Put a magnifying mirror over your cleavage. Give the old shit a heart attack.

The client is harder to deal with but I think if you raise the supplier issue then it tells the guys you work with that yes you do find that behaviour off - if they are anything like the tech guys I work with sometimes it takes saying as they are just not confident

Oh yes, and I'd definitely have a word with your boss and say that you are being made to feel a lot more uncomfortable than he does and it is his job to have your back. I suspect there's not a huge amount that can be done about suppliers and clients but he is part of your company and shouldn't be tolerating this.

I used to wonder about getting a T-shirt made up saying something along the lines of "if you're reading this you are a creep who needs to learn to look women in the eye" but suspect it would backfire.

I think it's wonderful how the self-righteous would see the OP out of her job. The employer will make an excuse to remove her rather than address the issue.

@Jacopo

Play the long game here, and to be honest the long game may be only a matter of months. Definitely dump the supplier, you say you only need him until the summer. Dump him then and tell him why. And say to yourself, one down one to go. The Client is 80. Tolerating him means you have a great salary and secure lifestyle for you and your daughter. You will be enjoying that long after he has ceased to be relevant. Your boss is a separate problem. I’d let him know how disappointed you are in his inability to support you. Do this at any official opportunity eg your annual review. And document it.

This. And possibly ask for extra danger money from your boss for making you have to put up with it.

I'd be very tempted to do start some head fucks of my own though. I'd gently and kindly say to the creep 'I hope you don't mind me asking Creep love, but are you gay? You know it's ok to be out nowadays, we won't judge you here..' or somesuch. If he asks you why you think he's gay I'd say 'Oh, just the way you behave around me - seems like you're trying to compensate for something'

That'll give him pause for thought.

doublemonkey that is really offensive.

Can you get a male colleague to deal with insulting supplier man?
Or just stop using them?
I think you may wish to consider consulting CAB for initial advice.
They should be able to point you in the right direction.

Dump the supplier, ignore the client. Everytime you look at the client think of your good salary and your daughter. Don't write off finding another job but don't burn your boats.

80 year old, I would ignore, misinterpret ( 'yes, women are extraordinary aren't they!) or make a joke.

As for the supplier, when he looks at your tits you could be direct ( my eyes are up here Bob) or something else ( gosh, have I spilled something on myself? And make a big deal of checking. ) Or, if he's married ask him how his wife is.

Your boss is crap, but I appreciate that you probably feel a bit stuck

Ugh, this is awful. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. I think it’s really sad that people are saying ‘play along’ or ‘just put up with it’. If this was racist behaviour or homophobic, you’d never be encouraged to do that. Women’s rights and equality are waaaay behind sadly.
My advice would be to call the supplier and say that you are only prepared to continue using them if their delivery guy behaves respectively and professionally towards the women on site. Tell them they have one more chance or you’ll move your business elsewhere. Tell your boss what you’ve done, that you’ve done it because he didn’t act any that you felt exposed and vulnerable. (You could also tell him he should be ashamed of himself, but you might not want to!)
As for the 80 year old - His behaviour is also unacceptable. My Dad is 80 and he would NEVER say anything like that!
Tell your boss (and the team) that you’re going to call this guy out if he does it again, so they know and have your back. Then, if he does it again, challenge him. Just say ‘please can you explain what you mean by that comment?’. He probably won’t be able to. He’ll feel foolish and not do it again.
If he explains by saying ‘we’ll it’s just women, they’re always acting irrationally’ or some such comment, then you can choose to say something like: ‘oh dear, I can tell you don’t have much experience with women.’ Or something equally belittling and smile beatifically at him! Or say ‘sir, this is a working environment and such comments are deeply unhelpful, and inappropriate, kindly stop.’ If your team know you’re going to do it and you expect their backing, then there won’t be embarrassed body language or comments from anyone other than the 80 year old.
All of this is easier said than done, but be strong - this sort of shit is not something we should have to put up with!

Change supplier. Tomorrow, start the process.

Just speak up. Something along the lines of please talk to my face not my tits usually does the trick

You're only 50, you've got another 15 or so years of work in you - are you really going to spend it here? Look for a new job and negotiate the salary.

@Smellycat290

Ugh, this is awful. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. I think it’s really sad that people are saying ‘play along’ or ‘just put up with it’. If this was racist behaviour or homophobic, you’d never be encouraged to do that. Women’s rights and equality are waaaay behind sadly. My advice would be to call the supplier and say that you are only prepared to continue using them if their delivery guy behaves respectively and professionally towards the women on site. Tell them they have one more chance or you’ll move your business elsewhere. Tell your boss what you’ve done, that you’ve done it because he didn’t act any that you felt exposed and vulnerable. (You could also tell him he should be ashamed of himself, but you might not want to!) As for the 80 year old - His behaviour is also unacceptable. My Dad is 80 and he would NEVER say anything like that! Tell your boss (and the team) that you’re going to call this guy out if he does it again, so they know and have your back. Then, if he does it again, challenge him. Just say ‘please can you explain what you mean by that comment?’. He probably won’t be able to. He’ll feel foolish and not do it again. If he explains by saying ‘we’ll it’s just women, they’re always acting irrationally’ or some such comment, then you can choose to say something like: ‘oh dear, I can tell you don’t have much experience with women.’ Or something equally belittling and smile beatifically at him! Or say ‘sir, this is a working environment and such comments are deeply unhelpful, and inappropriate, kindly stop.’ If your team know you’re going to do it and you expect their backing, then there won’t be embarrassed body language or comments from anyone other than the 80 year old. All of this is easier said than done, but be strong - this sort of shit is not something we should have to put up with!

But boss has already indicated he WONT have her back and this is a paying client. I do get that its absolutely wrong and in a perfect world it wouldn't happen but a good salary is a good salary and most of us can't afford to toss it away on principle and yes perfect world yadda yadda.

OP - I feel your pain.

The older men - I usually say - would you like your daughter to be spoken to like that. I now just raise an eyebrow at them and they back down.

I will disagree on the younger generation in some ways better and in some ways far worse. In the last couple of years I have experienced fr more sexist, misogynistic behaviour from the younger males. Some of this is wrapped up in - it is part of their cultural identity and how dare you be racist by calling it out - the other part, I think, is down to the over sexualisation of the female form at an early age. So boys are conditioned to seeing arses hanging out of shorts, boobs in their faces, doctored fotos of the female form into unnatural unachievable shapes and commenting on them with their friends is far more open and brutal - less is hidden.
Do not misunderstand - any woman can dress how she wants and not be considered a target but music lyrics are far cruder, instagram, tik tok etc are all very flirty

Things are better for women in the workplace in some ways but in other ways i think we have gone backward.

@Heronwatcher

If you want to stay in the job YOU HAVE GOT TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. If you can utterly directly- “would you mind staring at my breasts please,” or “don’t call me that name- I don’t like it” to the supplier, “I’m sorry what did you say” “those views are completely unacceptable in this day and age you know” or “has no one told you that sexism went out in the 1970s” to the client. If you can’t do this, then walk away from the situation, explain to your useless boss why and say he’ll have to get someone else to do the work. If he tries to do anything about it in terms of disciplining you tell him you’ll take him to an employment tribunal.

This is how I would do it.

You need to be very clear and factual. I think using witty clever comebacks is a bad idea.
I'd also make it clear to your colleagues that they shouldn't tolerate the behaviour too. Don't they have daughters!!
The key is to not feel embarrassed about any of this. You haven't done anything and you a right to not like it.

You sound very clued up and capable. If your boss won’t back you up on this, look for another job, you might be surprised how much better you can do elsewhere. 50 is the new 40 in today‘s job market anyway.

I can't believe people are saying "just put up with it" because the old dude's an octogenarian!

OP, can you say to your boss "you're going to have to say something to 80yo or I will, and it's better coming from you".

No one should have to dread going to work because of sexist, creepy men. It's 2022, not 1972 when you had to put up and shut up.