To say to dsis...they are not average? Or are they!?

[jazzyjeffs]

Name change for this...

Dsis always claims that they are an "average" family...she says it so breezily. Like for example...the whole Rishi Sunsk fiasco at the moment. She'll say things like, all well and good for him but we couldn't do that as an average family!! But...they are NOT average! They have no mortgage,(her dh played the whole property ladder thing very well from a young age!) they have no loans or debts, they don't pay for childcare as they work around each other etc. they make A LOT work.

Now on the outside, yes, they are average as in they have two working parents, 3 bed detached, two working cars (not brand new obviously!) but they're not AVERAGE? Are they??...

I'm not jealous, I have no need to be jealous as I'm very lucky in lots of ways!

It's difficult because you are trying to base it all on income / expenditure. I would say they are average by their living standard and probably lifestyle but very fortunate. I'm sure they worked very hard for what they have. Maybe they are putting all their surplus money into savings and pensions and don't have extravagant lifestyles but what sets them apart is (assuming) the lack of day to day worries about paying bills, mortgage, repayments etc which the less fortunate households do have to worry about more and more these days.

Average for the country as a whole? No, they’re not.

They might be average in their social circle though.

@jazzyjeffs

I'm not jealous, I have no need to be jealous as I'm very lucky in lots of ways!

So why does it bother you?

Your DS sounds like she is at the very lucky end of average to me? I would not say her situation is completely exceptional, but certainly she is fortunate to have such secure finances and low costs.

Lots of people don't like to think they are lucky.

If you say anything you will sound jealous. Just leave it and smile and nod. My brother has married well. He and my SIL were given a house on some land owned by her family. They spent about £50k doing it up but it's probably worth around £1 million. Brother is a badly paid social worker and SIL has a healthcare job . Never in a million years would they have been able to buy that house. Yet he still prattles on about how proud he is of his achievements in life to get to where he is. I just smile and nod whilst the thinking what a strain on his outstretched hand it must be.

I consider myself average and I have no mortgage, no debts, a few thousands in the bank and cars fully paid.

I still need to live within my means though. I can't afford trips to Mauritius, a Mercedes or renovate my bathroom until I save up if I don't want to go into debt.

I recognise many people have more financial issues than us but we are still dependent on our wages - if we lose our jobs we'll have money problems making ends meet.

I’m also curious why it bothers you, is your statement you’re lucky in lots of ways indicate maybe not as “lucky” as them financially?

They arnt exactly well above average like I was expecting to read. They sound hard working and good with money, good for them. You sound jealous with your ‘it’s hard to hear’ stuff.

Another who thinks she would be better saying "typical".
Yes, their income is clearly much higher than most, and it is probably not very common to be mortgage free when you still have a young family, but I think most of us understand what she means about having two parents out at work and having to be aware of what is being spent.

But, as Just10moreminutesplease says, most of us look at those people we see around us and think that - whatever it might look like - is 'normal'.

I've worked with lots of families where the Mum had a teenage pregnancy, as did her Mum and her Mum before her. They have never worked and live off benefits. In their eyes - that is completely normal, and it is the same for their neighbours in the high-rise blocks they are housed in. I've also got some friends who fly first class and go on two or three 'big' holidays a year. Again - that is completely normal for them and the other people they bump into in the airport lounge and the hotels they stay in, and presumably with their colleagues who earn the same salary. If your dc go to Private school, then you meet other parents whose dc go to Private school, and so, in your social circle, that is completely normal even though only a very small % of UK children go to private school, same with the families you mix with at the private tennis club etc etc. and so it goes on.

The term average is just so broad, and the information you've given is so imprecise, it's really hard to say.

What you've described here could very well cover a mid to late 40s couple in any number of UK cities where one of them bought a cheapo flat in like 2001, then upgraded to maybe a 100k or 150k property when they got together and pooled resources, paid it off recently and never saw any reason to buy a bigger home after that, while both working shifts around each other with one Band 6 and one Band 7 NHS.

Obviously any combination of factors that specific is unusual, but equally none of it would raise any eyebrows. Fairly bog standard. And there are lots of people who got lucky with the timing of the housing market whilst also not having wanted to upgrade to a particularly expensive home. Obviously if they're in fact sitting on a multi million property mortgage free and they're both 31, that would be a bit different!

If they have to work opposite shifts to avoid child care expenses then they are likely an average family. That is a huge strain on a family and a marriage.

I recognize that my family is not average, despite not being part of the elite. That is because we have very high incomes as defined by a comparison to national median income and live in a relatively low cost of living area. A family who earns closer to the median or that lives in a high cost of living area so their income needs to reflect that is indeed average.

@Kite22

Another who thinks she would be better saying "typical". Yes, their income is clearly much higher than most, and it is probably not very common to be mortgage free when you still have a young family, but I think most of us understand what she means about having two parents out at work and having to be aware of what is being spent.

But, as Just10moreminutesplease says, most of us look at those people we see around us and think that - whatever it might look like - is 'normal'.

I've worked with lots of families where the Mum had a teenage pregnancy, as did her Mum and her Mum before her. They have never worked and live off benefits. In their eyes - that is completely normal, and it is the same for their neighbours in the high-rise blocks they are housed in. I've also got some friends who fly first class and go on two or three 'big' holidays a year. Again - that is completely normal for them and the other people they bump into in the airport lounge and the hotels they stay in, and presumably with their colleagues who earn the same salary. If your dc go to Private school, then you meet other parents whose dc go to Private school, and so, in your social circle, that is completely normal even though only a very small % of UK children go to private school, same with the families you mix with at the private tennis club etc etc. and so it goes on.

The other thing to note is that even 'small' proportions, in the UK is several million people. To demonstrate 5% of people in poverty is 3 million people. 10% would be 6 million.

That's a LOT of struggling people, but in % terms not the majority of the country...

They're certainly not "average" on that income and to be mortgage free while with young dependent children. But I can see why she'd say they aren't on the level of the Sunaks, who are much, much further from average than she is.

I would say if you chopped all of the millionaire’s and billionaires out of the equation then your SIL would be way above average. Obviously that is how maths works but my point is that for an average working family your sil is at the top end of the scale.

I'd say not average looking at the stats.

The average wage is something like 29k so they earn a fair bit above average.

The average mortgage debt is £137k so to have none is well below average (you don't mention their ages however).

Only 24% of people live in detached houses (60% in semis).

The majority of households only own one car.

I wouldn't say their circumstances are UNUSUAL though.

I think you need to ask yourself why it's so important to you to put your sister in her place? And then ask yourself why it's so important to put your sister in her place over this?

I suppose also them doing opposite shifts to avoid childcare costs is probably causally linked to not having a mortgage or any other debt, and owning two cars. Because of how brutal opposite shifts are, I think a lot of people who could in theory do it choose instead to spend money on childcare. But there's bound to be some people who do it as an active choice to save money, rather than because they simply can't afford childcare.

@jazzyjeffs

"I'm not jealous, I have no need to be jealous as I'm very lucky in lots of ways!"

So why bring it up? How does their situation affect your life ?

They sound very average to me, however it's all a matter of prospective isn't it
I think their are a lot of people struggling and a lot of rich people however I also think a good % of people are in the middle (average)

@carefullycourageous

Your DS sounds like she is at the very lucky end of average to me? I would not say her situation is completely exceptional, but certainly she is fortunate to have such secure finances and low costs.

Lots of people don't like to think they are lucky.

Its impossible to say whether they are lucky.

They clearly organise their working lives to make sure they dont have the expense of child care, which suggests to me that they organise their finances to their benefit too.

Of course they might have been given a shed load of money to put them in this position, or got prestigious jobs with high income by nepotism or friend of a friend. In which case, yes thats 'lucky' rather than hard work.

@bellac11 It is lucky not to have anything throw a spanner in the works. I personally do not really believe in hard work being the distinguishing thing between those who have no ill health, disability, redundancy, unexpected issues and those who do.

I am very lucky and I count my blessings every day. I do not work harder than my colleagues who have e.g. had a bad car crash and ended up having a year off work.

If you have experienced rising house prices and uninterrupted work, you are lucky. If you can get jobs that tie in with each other (as me and my DH have) you are lucky. So many people have to juggle.

If they're of an age to still have DC still needing childcare and are also mortgage free, there's probably an element of luck there even if it was only being born at the right time. But no more so than anyone else born in eg 1975.

Sound average- a 3 bed is small- if they lived in a larger house they would have a mortgage

There is inherent luck, thats without a doubt. Lucky that you are well enough to work, have the intelligence to get through education and qualifications for a good job, etc etc

But its also choices that are made within the limitations or abilities you have. So did they buy a cheaper property in order to make sure they could be mortgage free at a particular point, did they get qualified to make sure they had access to good jobs, did they choose to have a particular number of children rather than too many to afford etc etc