To say to dsis...they are not average? Or are they!?

[jazzyjeffs]

Name change for this...

Dsis always claims that they are an "average" family...she says it so breezily. Like for example...the whole Rishi Sunsk fiasco at the moment. She'll say things like, all well and good for him but we couldn't do that as an average family!! But...they are NOT average! They have no mortgage,(her dh played the whole property ladder thing very well from a young age!) they have no loans or debts, they don't pay for childcare as they work around each other etc. they make A LOT work.

Now on the outside, yes, they are average as in they have two working parents, 3 bed detached, two working cars (not brand new obviously!) but they're not AVERAGE? Are they??...

I'm not sure people's spending at the moment is indicative of how people WILL be struggling.
Lots of these holidays will be covid carry overs.
People won't yet be massively affected by price rises. I expect it to hit me around autumn, so probably won't have any holidays next year. Night a 2nd hand car last year, so hoping for 10 years out of that.

I’m really puzzled that people are saying this is average. The IFS actually has a calculator based on household income: ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

If, say, they are a family of 2 adults and 2 children, they earn £80k a year and pay e.g. £1900 council tax then they have more income than 89% of the population. So they are very nearly in the top 10%. Add to that that they don’t have to pay for housing which is a, if not the, major outgoing for most households and that puts them in a considerably more well off position than the vast majority of people.

I think what’s confusing is that the gap between being in the top 10% and the top 1% is massive. You would think once you’re in the top 10% you’re close to being in the top 1% with Sunak but if the gap were a time period it would be like saying that the Elizabethan era is ‘nearly’ in the Jurassic age compared to today. Of course it’s not - the gap is still massive.

They are no where near ultra wealthy and they are not average. Both things can be true.

A 3 bedroom home could cost anywhere between 100k and 1 million depending on where in the country we are talking about. And pretty normal to have two cars these days seeing as many households now have to rely on two wages.

And the fact is that in relation to Rishi Sunak, anyone earning between 20k and £1 million is average.

@fizzyfood

The average family are not mortgage free in my opinion.

That could depend on where you in the country you live. Being mortgage free in a house worth 150k is very different to one worth £1.5 million. Having paid off your mortgage is pretty meaningless as an indicator of wealth.

@Pitafalafel

A 3 bedroom home could cost anywhere between 100k and 1 million depending on where in the country we are talking about. And pretty normal to have two cars these days seeing as many households now have to rely on two wages.

And the fact is that in relation to Rishi Sunak, anyone earning between 20k and £1 million is average.

Yes so much of this is region specific.

50k salary might be pretty high in some areas of the U.K. and really not in London.

I am in London and I can only think of one or two families that own two cars off the top of my head, even amongst the richest people I know, but in other parts of the country owning two cars is completely standard.

@ActonBell

I’m really puzzled that people are saying this is average. The IFS actually has a calculator based on household income: ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

If, say, they are a family of 2 adults and 2 children, they earn £80k a year and pay e.g. £1900 council tax then they have more income than 89% of the population. So they are very nearly in the top 10%. Add to that that they don’t have to pay for housing which is a, if not the, major outgoing for most households and that puts them in a considerably more well off position than the vast majority of people.

I think what’s confusing is that the gap between being in the top 10% and the top 1% is massive. You would think once you’re in the top 10% you’re close to being in the top 1% with Sunak but if the gap were a time period it would be like saying that the Elizabethan era is ‘nearly’ in the Jurassic age compared to today. Of course it’s not - the gap is still massive.

They are no where near ultra wealthy and they are not average. Both things can be true.

Thats very interesting

Its shows our situation as being in the top 5%

I find that hard to believe, we drive old bangers, have debts and no savings, live in a cheap deprived area of the UK!!! Still have a mortgage

Im failing to see the benefits!

With no mortgage or childcare costs I'd say that their disposable income us way above average on that income. Obviously compared to Rishi's household income it's miniscule but most if us aren't measuring against that!

@ActonBell
I wouldn’t even say it’s the 1%, I’d say it’s more like the 0.01%

There are approximately 10,000 people in the UK with net worth of £20 million +. That is the ultra wealthy.

I would say taking out the mortgage she does sound fairly typical middle class suburbs.

Which I think is what she is trying to say

Well it’s a spectrum and they are within it

But of course better off than many.

They sound average to me. Yes they are doing well compared to many but they aren't in the 1pc are they. Reportedly Rishi is worth £200 million and his wife over £400 million, so yeah Dsis is in with the rest of us average lot.

YABU for not reminding her that "family" must always be preceded by "hard working", so that we never forget that families are the most hard working people in the world ever.

That calculator is not helpful. I have £0 income at the moment so it's telling me I'm one of the 1% poorest people in the country. There is no account taken of savings or assets.

The only non"average" thing I guess is no mortgage. Otherwise perfectly average to me. Fair play to them.

@ActonBell

I’m really puzzled that people are saying this is average. The IFS actually has a calculator based on household income: ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

If, say, they are a family of 2 adults and 2 children, they earn £80k a year and pay e.g. £1900 council tax then they have more income than 89% of the population. So they are very nearly in the top 10%. Add to that that they don’t have to pay for housing which is a, if not the, major outgoing for most households and that puts them in a considerably more well off position than the vast majority of people.

I think what’s confusing is that the gap between being in the top 10% and the top 1% is massive. You would think once you’re in the top 10% you’re close to being in the top 1% with Sunak but if the gap were a time period it would be like saying that the Elizabethan era is ‘nearly’ in the Jurassic age compared to today. Of course it’s not - the gap is still massive.

They are no where near ultra wealthy and they are not average. Both things can be true.

That's a fascinating tool.

It says we earn more than only 21% of the population, because I don't work (home educator). But it tells such a small amount of the story. We (currently) own our house outright, 4-bed detached with large garden, so we're definitely more well off than salary alone suggests.

OP: what is 'average' or 'typical' to you?

fwiw, I would say on the given attributes:

homeowners : Typical: ~65% of all properties in England are owner-occupied
2 adult HH with small number of kids : Somewhat unusual, more HH members than usual
Both adults in employment : Typical, most households most persons age 16+ in them are employed
3 bed : Average. Which says that's almost precisely average (who knew?)
detached : Unusual; only 18% of UK housing stock, apparently
no mortgage : Typical. Apparently 63% of homeowners in England own outright
no loans or debts : Unusual, only true of 22% of adults
don't pay for childcare : Typical? ; There are hugely more children than there are paid childcare places, so looks to me like a minority of all children are in any paid childcare
two working cars (not brand new) : Unusual, , slightly

Most unusual things are that the house is detached & being personal debt-free

I wonder if any MNers are 'average' on the same metrics (!)

If you adjust for certain things, like allow they are both working age, being a 2 car household probably becomes 'typical', and being personal-debt free becomes more unusual (etc). But probably wouldn't adjust to being wildly unusual.

It depends where you live I guess. In London having a detached house with no mortgage and two cars puts you in millionaire territory. Not so much in Wigan I guess.

[quote Pitafalafel]@ActonBell
I wouldn’t even say it’s the 1%, I’d say it’s more like the 0.01%

There are approximately 10,000 people in the UK with net worth of £20 million +. That is the ultra wealthy.[/quote]
Agreed. According to that we’re in the top 1%. We are very fortunate but we’re nowhere near Rishi Sunak levels of wealth. Within the 1% is a further massive range.

@GrouchyKiwi yes income isn’t remotely the whole picture is it?

Most pensioners I know have very small incomes but a lot of them are fairly wealthy in that they own property outright and have savings but yet they are swaying the distribution.

Also of course most people have low salaries for the first few years of their adulthood. I don’t know what “household” I would have fallen into when at university for instance - I was registered for council tax and voting purposes at my university address. Only 2/4 of us in the house worked and that was very part time, we probably had a household income of 10k a year but as we were all supported by parents it didn’t make us individually or collectively remotely poor.

You’d probably need some kind of income and household wealth calculator taking into account people only of a certain age range, excluding the youngest adults and excluding the retired.

They seem pretty average to me too-

I wonder:

Why she says it so much-if she does or you just feel like she does

Why it bothers you @jazzyjeffs

It says we earn more than only 21% of the population, because I don't work (home educator). But it tells such a small amount of the story. We (currently) own our house outright, 4-bed detached with large garden, so we're definitely more well off than salary alone suggests.
We are 21st percentile too, one adult one child, £600 a month rent.

Average covers a range imo.

I would say average but comfortable due to having no mortgage or childcare fees.

I doubt they can:
Upside to a detached house
Send dc to private school
Take regular luxury holidays
Take up expensive hobbies

Average for twenty year ago apart from having the house paid off. Not even the well to do families I know have two cars anymore. Certainly not if they have a semi. Terrace or flat families maybe.

Lol mate, you're on mumsnet asking mumsnetters basically what they consider to be an average family....so of course the general consensus is that your sister is very typical and average. Meanwhile in the real world....lol.

My opinion is most average families don't have a joint income of that amount and certainly are not mortgage free. You are right in your thinking.