When men say "I prefer women without make-up"...

[ThingThatIBring]

AIBU to think that when men say "I prefer women without make-up" that they don't usually know what they're talking about (and don't usually have a clue that women ARE wearing it)?

The reality of this statement is usually:

• I don't like it when women wear really obvious MAKE-UP make-up (loads of lippy and false eyelashes etc) or when it's badly applied (making it obvious);
• I like really good-looking fresh-faced young women whose complexions, etc., look smooth without it;
• I like to think of myself as very wholesome (and maybe a bit of a feminist).

What they DON'T mean (but don't realise they don't mean) is:

• I prefer the look of the average woman of my own age without any make-up on.

I know so many men who say this, and it always mildly irritates me as it's said like it's a kind of virtue.

As a post-mating-phase human, it's not like it really affects my life. But it always makes me feel for all the women who are still in a position where they're affected by this nonsense...

@OutingHobby

But having said that, when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that it's her choice though. You should spend less time focusing on what she looks like and more time on what she's saying.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Extrapolating from one or two bad experiences, I have a theory that women who wear a lot of very heavy, very obvious, very unsubtle make-up are not the brightest. It makes me wary of them in any professional setting.

They don't need my male approval of their appearance and they haven't missed out by not getting it. It's a prejudice about professional norms, not about attractiveness.

*male!! Not make

Extrapolating from one or two bad experiences, I have a theory that women who wear a lot of very heavy, very obvious, very unsubtle make-up are not the brightest.

Ironically, extrapolating this from one or two bad experiences isn't the brightest thing to do.

Yes we don’t need male approval - but how much of make up is about male approval. How much of this are we actually subconsciously accepting - whereas consciously we’d say no!! Every time we ‘plump up our lips’ or go for a silky youthful dewy glow.

Extrapolating from one or two bad experiences, I have a theory that women who wear a lot of very heavy, very obvious, very unsubtle make-up are not the brightest. It makes me wary of them in any professional setting. at least you are aware of your prejudice I guess.

@Silverclocks

I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe.

Men might like a certain sort of women to look at in pictures, but genuinely, the men I know in real life like women who are fun and interesting. This applies to everyone from DH, my Dad, my sons, my friends, my friends" husbands and my colleagues.

These men are nothing particularly special to look at themselves and perhaps that makes a difference, but if any of them care much about looks they hide it well. They find their partners attractive, but they see something in them that others don't.

I love this. As someone who genuinely wears no make up, I just don’t understand people who do on a daily basis. The new heavier make up in particular is just so sad- those people who don’t look anything like themselves… why? Even that Reddit post with the four looks- the no make up woman looked fine to me and her makeup hid her ethnicity which was sad.

So yes the men in my life (adult son, young son and dh) love me for me and it’s nice for me to see DS has chosen girlfriends who are not the typical insta type made up.

Surely we need to look at why women are brought up to think it’s normal to hide what they look like and why they think that what they look like is so damned important. So may people say “oh but it is for ME” but that’s just not true is it? It’s so sad that people want this generic look so much and use filters- even on babies.

To all the women saying you don’t do it for men, you do it for yourself, tell me, if you lived on a desert island would you bother to put on any slap?

Assuming this is some kind of full-service desert island with hot water, electricity and mirrors, and no humidity to make it instantly slide off my face, yes I would. Only mascara and foundation/tinted moisturiser, but that’s all I wear now.

It’s like saying “if you were on a desert island, would you really bother brushing your hair?” Most people would want to.

@DrSbaitso

Extrapolating from one or two bad experiences, I have a theory that women who wear a lot of very heavy, very obvious, very unsubtle make-up are not the brightest.

Ironically, extrapolating this from one or two bad experiences isn't the brightest thing to do.

No, but we all do it, I reckon.

when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on

You could just as easily encounter a woman who has a full face of subtle make up which has taken hours to achieve but you barely notice. You probably don't judge them

@Emergency73

Surely as women we need to not buy into all this crap - and that will be a big step towards eradicating what you describe above?

If every single woman everywhere made a pact not to enhance their appearance, there would be a drop, for want of a better word (change, maybe better) in the beauty standards men expected, certainly. But it would not eradicate the inequalities arising from women's different levels of attractiveness. Amongst all the new 'natural only' women, some would be naturally better looking than others and would have greater opportunities because of it. Before too long, other women would look to emulate the physical characteristics of those naturally better looking women in order to increase their own opportunities. While men value looks, it will never be eradicated. So I think the best that can be hoped for is to understand it, navigate it yourself in accordance with your own cost benefit analysis, respect other women's rights to do the same, and offer some counterbalance by our own valuing of other women for reasons unrelated to looks.

Heterosexual women generally want to attract men as partners.

But it's not like women are going around every day of their lives looking for a man. Many women spend most of their adult lives either already in a relationship or not bothered. Yet these women may still wear make up and pay attention to their appearance.

Women don't spend their lives looking for men. There are lots of them about, and most of them not up to much.

No, but we all do it, I reckon.

No, we don't. More extrapolation based on nothing.

But having said that, when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that.

Actually, if her make up was that clumsily and obviously done, then it probably didn't take her more than a few minutes to do it.

It's the subtle 'barely there' 'natural' look that takes ages to do. And you probably don't even notice that in your female colleagues, except to think that they look good.

As so many of us have said above, this is typical of men who comment on make up. They don't really know what they're talking about.

@mathanxiety

Men don't bother with this level of pressure

Bless your naivete.

What do you think all those sweating men are doing at gyms all over the western world? Improving their cardiovascular function? 😂

The men buying exactly the right pair of jeans? Exactly the right car, which they lovingly work on all weekend?

All the men getting peaky blinders haircuts and expensive barber services? Buying beard oil by the gallon? And the market for hair regrowth serum is worth millions.

Men absolutely pay attention to markers of masculinity.

I don't go to the gym, I buy jeans that are comfortable to wear without really considering any other factor (not often, I've had the same pair for years), I don't own a car, and I spend about a tenner when I go to the barber's.

Am I not doing it right?

No, but we all do it, I reckon. we really don't

Do y'all have the same baseless, moralistic and puritanical view of traditional face painting in other cultures? They definitely don't go for the natural look. It's not always supposed to look like you're not wearing it.

Nothing wrong with not liking it. But it takes a certain kind of thought process (or absence of any) to decide that your aesthetic preferences are actually a sign of one's superior moral character.

@5128gap

I think there are two very good ads to watch. The controversial Gillette ad, and the highly praised ‘run like a girl’. It’s a fascinating debate I think.

Personally I think there have been huge strides against an overtly sexual, overly made up look - it now looks pretty ‘dated’ which is good. I think we need to continue to challenge. I’m very aware presently of how DD, her whole concept of self will be moulded as she enters her teens - and the role I play there. I definitely want to steer her away from Love Island type role models - and look more to value Alyssa Carson etc.

It's the subtle 'barely there' 'natural' look that takes ages to do.

Too true!

How long do I spend sponging it off and redoing it because it's so easy to be too heavy handed. And it's harder to stay inside the lines, so to speak, when you're trying to keep it subtle.

But if I'm doing green, beige and pink shadow and winged liner, yes, I know you can see it.

The new heavier make up in particular is just so sad- those people who don’t look anything like themselves… why?

sad? for whom? they probably aren't sad, they spend time putting it on so let's assume they do it for a reason and that putting on make up makes them feel better about going to the office than not putting on make up (without getting into the reasons why they feel that)

for you? Why are you that emotionally involved about other women's make up?

Frankly? a lot of make up trends (WTF is with modern eyebrows?) make me go "urgh" but I'm with pp who said that a lot of it is like transient art. Some of the modern eye make up trends are quite artistic and beautiful.

My take on make up and work? It is generally up there with things like: pressed, clean clothes and clean shoes. Brushed hair and teeth. Clean fingernails. Even ties (in businesses that insist on that)
Dressing according to the company norm is showing that you take your workplace seriously, and not having, say, clean hands, is rude to the other people you work with. Make up for a lot of women is part of that. It is also, unfortunately, part of that for bosses and decision makers about who gets the job, who keeps the job and who gets the promotions.

So i don't get all judgy about women wearing make up at work, unless it looks really badly done, in the way that i would also look askance at the men coming in un-ironed suits and shirts. (lucky me, business casual all the way and hybrid working means not much time spent on a lick of mascara and lippy for me)

*Actually, if her make up was that clumsily and obviously done, then it probably didn't take her more than a few minutes to do it.

It's the subtle 'barely there' 'natural' look that takes ages to do. And you probably don't even notice that in your female colleagues, except to think that they look good.

As so many of us have said above, this is typical of men who comment on make up. They don't really know what they're talking about.*

That's a fair point. The person who I'm looking at and judging is not weirdly enthusiastic about make-up, she's just bad at applying it.

We're very lucky as men in that respect. If you are wearing a suit and and your hair is tidy and you are not obese, you look smart.

I wouldn't swap.

Bold fail, sorry.

We're very lucky as men in that respect. If you are wearing a suit and and your hair is tidy and you are not obese, you look smart.

Is this what men think?

Not all suits are created equal. Some are ill fitting, cheap and sloppy.

So no, it's not just a case of pull on a suit and comb your hair and you'll look 'smart'.

Is this what men think?

Yes. Cute, isn't it?

@IcedPurple

Heterosexual women generally want to attract men as partners.

But it's not like women are going around every day of their lives looking for a man. Many women spend most of their adult lives either already in a relationship or not bothered. Yet these women may still wear make up and pay attention to their appearance.

Women don't spend their lives looking for men. There are lots of them about, and most of them not up to much.

Of course not. I never said all women wear make up to attract men. My point was more in response to the criticism of those that do, as enhancing ones appearance gives one an advantage with men, should one wish for that. You're right, most are not up to much, and if a woman wants to attract one of the minority of that are, her looks are important in her ability to do so.

@Midlifemusings

I have never worn make-up and men don't care. They are fine with a natual look.

I also prefer men who don't wear make-up.

I don't think it is a big deal. Men, like women have preferences. Some prefer a natural look, others like a look that has a little make-up, others like a lot of make-up. A preference for no make-up doesn't make some misogynist. Many women don't wear make-up. It is okay for men to like us too!

Pretty much this.

37 years ago my bf said he didn't think I needed make up - I was getting ready for a night out. We discussed it for a while, those were the gender bending years remember.

Because I am very fair haired and my eyelashes and brows are nigh on invisible I wore mascara for a few more years until that same bf, long since my DH, asked why I was bothering. So I stopped. because the reason I was bothering was habit.

Don't think DH is a misogynist, he's just not bothered by all the fuss over enhanced appearances.