When men say "I prefer women without make-up"...

[ThingThatIBring]

AIBU to think that when men say "I prefer women without make-up" that they don't usually know what they're talking about (and don't usually have a clue that women ARE wearing it)?

The reality of this statement is usually:

• I don't like it when women wear really obvious MAKE-UP make-up (loads of lippy and false eyelashes etc) or when it's badly applied (making it obvious);
• I like really good-looking fresh-faced young women whose complexions, etc., look smooth without it;
• I like to think of myself as very wholesome (and maybe a bit of a feminist).

What they DON'T mean (but don't realise they don't mean) is:

• I prefer the look of the average woman of my own age without any make-up on.

I know so many men who say this, and it always mildly irritates me as it's said like it's a kind of virtue.

As a post-mating-phase human, it's not like it really affects my life. But it always makes me feel for all the women who are still in a position where they're affected by this nonsense...

How dare men have any preferences at all. It's an abomination.

How dare they? The point is that most men who say that have no idea what make up looks like - the no-make-up look uses so many products i can't be bothered with it even though i really like the look.

And they can have whatever preferences they like, they can use their inside their head voices to discuss it, there is no need to say that out loud unless asked.

I usually only wear mascara and eyebrows (must wear eyebrows as mine are so pale it looks as though i have none, very weird). If i have a fringe i don't bother with the brows though. And some days? well some days are red lipstick days.

They can have all the preferences they like but a lot of men attempt to inflict that on women

I’m a bit hmm about make up. Is it really necessary anyway? I wear it - but isn’t the whole premise about it to ‘make myself look better’ - and why should I need to look different to how I am? Why should women be ‘expected’/or generally do wear more make up then men? Why do I need to ‘minimise my wrinkles’, why do I need to make my lips look plumper? Why do I need to have longer eyelashes? How much make up is about trying to look more sexually attractive to men? So actually it depends on the reason a man says ‘I prefer no make up’. If it’s from a perspective of - be yourself, than I’d support that.

I also think it’s very overpriced and it annoys me that cosmetic companies sell very similar products aimed at women/men - but charge twice as much for the product aimed at women. That IS bad. And I buy the men’s version of the product in protest!

@MidnightMeltdown

In my earlier post on this thread the first line I wrote us is “women wear make-up for other women”. There’s more there, might be worth reading.

Your mum was looking for a raise in status and decided a beautiful daughter would give her access to greater status in your town.

Most people are on a hunt for status of some kind. It’s very normal.

Historically women have been objectified, unable to have equal status as men. We’ve gained it in other ways and there are other societal constructs about how women raise their status in society vs men.

I guess I think in a time when we no longer need to bark back to old archetypes and tropes about how to raise our status as women, the one thing we should not be doing is encouraging beauty for women as one of them. But it seems no one can think for themselves and the media is so loud these days and social media all powerful.

Objectification has never been more present and powerful.

And £100 plus for a face cream is quite common for a woman’s product. Is that similar for men? I’d say it’s fairly uncommon. And that’s just ridiculous. THAT is sexist. Yet we just seem to accept it. And then to the other extreme - plastic surgery. Again - more common in women. Why, why, why do women feel the need to do it?

@mathanxiety

men don't like the trickery

Lol, men who don't like 'the trickery' are men who believe women put on makeup purely to attract them.

This. Men who say this as a general comment often bizarrely view themselves as some sort of holy grail that women are desperate to obtain and will resort to subterfuge to do so. They tell tales of inadvertently sleeping with a woman they thought was good enough, only to be furious when they see her in the morning without make up. They are the same men who insist on full length photos on online dating in case they accidentally waste their precious time on a woman who is fatter than they expected. (Men who say it to women with a lot of make up are putting her down because they know she wouldn't look at them twice. Men who say it to women without make up are the same ones who say they prefer brunettes to brown haired women, or curvy women if you're overweight.)

@5128gap

Ok so the whole marketing if ‘minimise wrinkles, plumper lips, luscious lashes, youthful glow’…what’s that all about - if not about sexual attraction.

I have noticed it is these very men that say they prefer no makeup, and their wife doesn't wear it that then oogle other women with makeup! Such double standards.

I think the whole make up thing/marketing etc is generally VERY sexist, and incredible amount of unconscious/conscious bias and we buy the stuff without question!!! Why the f should I need ‘plumper lips’ and luscious lashes and no wrinkles???? And buy a bloody FORTUNE for it.

I just feel in general , life is so much better when I don’t consider or care what men think or feel about what I do.

[quote JulieBeds]@MidnightMeltdown

In my earlier post on this thread the first line I wrote us is “women wear make-up for other women”. There’s more there, might be worth reading.

Your mum was looking for a raise in status and decided a beautiful daughter would give her access to greater status in your town.

Most people are on a hunt for status of some kind. It’s very normal.

Historically women have been objectified, unable to have equal status as men. We’ve gained it in other ways and there are other societal constructs about how women raise their status in society vs men.

I guess I think in a time when we no longer need to bark back to old archetypes and tropes about how to raise our status as women, the one thing we should not be doing is encouraging beauty for women as one of them. But it seems no one can think for themselves and the media is so loud these days and social media all powerful.

Objectification has never been more present and powerful.[/quote]
This is all very well as a theory. But it ignores a large slice of reality. Heterosexual women generally want to attract men as partners. A primary selection criteria for men when choosing a female partner is her looks. A woman who is perceived as attractive has far more options when selecting a partner than one who isn't. And the argument that some men ('the good ones') prefer other traits over looks, is based on the erroneous assumption that women can either be attractive OR have qualities such as intelligence, humour and so on, when in fact, they are not mutually exclusive. Women who are attractive have a huge advantage. Until this is no longer the case, which I predict will be never, women will be obliged to be interested in how attractive they are, unless they are not looking for a partner, or are prepared to accept a smaller pool from which to select. Accepting this unpalatable truth is not the same as an inability to think for oneself.

To all the women saying you don’t do it for men, you do it for yourself, tell me, if you lived on a desert island would you bother to put on any slap?

Of course not. I'd be too busy hunting, fishing, starting fires and looking for buried treasure.

But the fact that I don't wear makeup or attractive clothes when I'm at home all day slobbing doesn't mean that I'm thinking about being sexy for men when I create a style and aesthetic that I like, that expresses myself, when I'm out and about.

It's fine not to like makeup or want to wear it, but being ludicrously puritanical about it suggests a different motivation.

I'm male. I am ambivalent about make-up, as lots of PPs have said, it's part of an overall style. The current "fake" look with drawn-on eyebrows and obvious lip fillers is something I find bizarre, but I'm old now. The equivalent in my day was the Goth look.

But having said that, when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that.

Actually I saw ab eyeshadow tutorial the other day for a style I intend to try for an upcoming event. It's a fun aesthetic. Not male gaze sexy, just pretty and unusual looking. Some people enjoy playing with makeup. In fact, people who are really, really into it often see it as a kind of wearable, transient art. And some of their skills are incredible.

when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that.

What should she have been doing instead?

@5128gap - yes, but why are we playing into cosmetic companies hands and paying a fortune for it. I just looked at my deodorant spray. I’ve got two - a mans cheaper one, a woman’s more expensive one. The mans one is 48hours and all about power, action, ready to go. The women’s one is 48 hours and all soft and gentle. And delicate pretty, pastel colours. I deliberately reached for the men’s one this morning.

@DrSbaitso

when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that.

What should she have been doing instead?

Sleeping!

Surely as women we need to not buy into all this crap - and that will be a big step towards eradicating what you describe above?

But having said that, when I encounter a woman in perfectly normal workaday circumstances who is heavily made-up and bright orange, it makes me think that she must have got out of bed an hour earlier to wallop it on, and I wonder about the priorities of anyone who would bother with that it's her choice though. You should spend less time focusing on what she looks like and more time on what she's saying.

[quote Emergency73]@5128gap

Ok so the whole marketing if ‘minimise wrinkles, plumper lips, luscious lashes, youthful glow’…what’s that all about - if not about sexual attraction.[/quote]
Well its obviously rooted in sexual attraction. I never said otherwise, did I? As in my post above, the more attractive a woman is, the more likely she will attract a man she wants to have sex with or form a partnership with. I didn't make those rules, and I'm not pretending they don't exist. There are nuances within that, as other people have said, women want to look a certain way for themselves too and for other women. Me, for example. I have a partner and am not after another, but do enjoy making myself look what I consider to be aesthetically pleasing (to me) as I prefer looking at things I find visually attractive, including my own reflection.

Sleeping!

And if she's a naturally early riser? If she goes to bed early because she wants an hour in the morning to do something else? If she doesn't start her shift until 10am? If she just bloody well chooses to rise early to style herself the way she wants?

Her "priorities" are wrong because she isn't lying in bed like you'd choose to do?

@stuckdownahole maybe she doesn't want to sleep. So not only does she have to look a certain way she has to spend her free time doing what you think she should be doing.

@Emergency73

I’m a bit hmm about make up. Is it really necessary anyway? I wear it - but isn’t the whole premise about it to ‘make myself look better’ - and why should I need to look different to how I am? Why should women be ‘expected’/or generally do wear more make up then men? Why do I need to ‘minimise my wrinkles’, why do I need to make my lips look plumper? Why do I need to have longer eyelashes? How much make up is about trying to look more sexually attractive to men? So actually it depends on the reason a man says ‘I prefer no make up’. If it’s from a perspective of - be yourself, than I’d support that.

Short answer, you don't.

I'm a man and clearly you don't need my opinion but whilst I appreciate that men are dicks (who mostly grow up thinking women are on this planet solely for their pleasure) some of us see the overwhelming media and marketing pressure and think it sucks. We're happy to support our wives and importantly our daughters just being themselves and not fueling a multi billion pound industry that rams ideals of beauty down their throats.

@5128gap

Yes - and I do exactly the same! What you are saying is exactly how things are. BUT how much of this is as a result of sexist conditioning/marketing since I’ve been young. I think it’s really good to question WHY I do it - to challenge it. For my DD - I’d actually prefer things to be different. She’s nearly a teenager now. And I’d rather she didn’t see me pursuing ‘plump lips’ and ‘youthful glow’ over being ‘ready for action’ as my make deodorant advocates?