When men say "I prefer women without make-up"...

[ThingThatIBring]

AIBU to think that when men say "I prefer women without make-up" that they don't usually know what they're talking about (and don't usually have a clue that women ARE wearing it)?

The reality of this statement is usually:

• I don't like it when women wear really obvious MAKE-UP make-up (loads of lippy and false eyelashes etc) or when it's badly applied (making it obvious);
• I like really good-looking fresh-faced young women whose complexions, etc., look smooth without it;
• I like to think of myself as very wholesome (and maybe a bit of a feminist).

What they DON'T mean (but don't realise they don't mean) is:

• I prefer the look of the average woman of my own age without any make-up on.

I know so many men who say this, and it always mildly irritates me as it's said like it's a kind of virtue.

As a post-mating-phase human, it's not like it really affects my life. But it always makes me feel for all the women who are still in a position where they're affected by this nonsense...

@BoredZelda exactly this is actually one of the most sexist sites I know by people who want equality but clearly they don't as they can't see how wrong some of the things they are saying are

@HesterShaw1 nowhere did it say random man walks uo to a woman and says this , people to people they know and yes I will of said to men I prefer clean shaven etc even if they have a beard as thats my preference , I have said it to my dh as well because its the truth I do prefer a clean shaven man when going by appearance
Im not walking up to a stranger in the street and saying it but in conversations with men and women and general chit chat

To all the women saying you don’t do it for men, you do it for yourself, tell me, if you lived on a desert island would you bother to put on any slap?

Probably not. Why? Because there’d be no one to see you.

It’s other people’s opinions of you that you care about, be they men or women. You’re not doing it for yourself. You have a sense of identity about how you wish to present yourself to the world, and that may consist of some make up. But don’t pretend it’s for yourself, it’s for everyone else to perceive you in the way you wish to be perceived.

As for men primping and preening, how do you think that whole male beauty thing took off?

The beauty brands saw how fucking gullible women were and decided to unpick the male ego in exactly the same way. It’s taken the best part of two decades but they’ve succeeded. But when I was growing up, men really didn’t care about their hair etc

The beauty industry plays in our biggest human truth:

Everyone, yes everyone feels like they aren’t good enough, just as they are. everyone has something they’d change. Even supermodels and fit blokes, underneath, somewhere, something niggles. It’s a universal human truth to not feel good enough. We all feel it and the beauty industry is living proof that if they tried hard enough eventually they’d crack men and add 50% extra market share to their bottom line.

And as for trickery, yes, make up can be a form of trickery. It tricks you into thinking you need it. It tricks you into thinking you’re somehow “less” without it. It tricks you into thinking that women wearing it are somehow better than you, more worthy than you.

And as for it being an investment, my time spent getting to know someone/anyone is a form of investment. Time and money are somewhat synonymous for me. I’m not going to insult anyone with some weird plumped up, preened up version of myself only to at some stage present a different less coloured in version. Why would I do that? Take me as I am.

Think of Kim Kardashian. There’s a cost, mental, physical and emotional, to looking that way and she’s free to take that choice but it looks exhausting, unhealthy and a strange road to travel. Not one I’d want. It’s not real life for most women and she sets a ridiculous impossible unhealthy standard that others follow who haven’t had time to mature and grow and truly understand the nature of what real female beauty is. She’s extremely wealthy, but she’s made her money by playing into all the same insecurities that the same media playbook uses over and over again: You’re Not Good Enough As You Are and my Spanx will save you from your hellish rotten body.

You could call her a genius for actually using the existing beauty industries’ playbook at us women once again. She’s made the money instead of a group of pale, stale executive males.

But woman to woman I’d say she’s betrayed us.

I wish her no ill but I find her abhorrent for what she’s done to so many many women.

I rarely wear makeup up because I'm pretty lazy and DH doesn't seem to mind, although I'm sure he thinks I look better with it on.

He hasn't the faintest idea about hair though and thinks every 40 or 50 something year old womens hair is its natural colour!! I'm not sure what he thinks all the hairdressers in our town do!

it was a reasonably sensible debate before. Thank goodness you’re here.

Oh my, your bar for that is really low

My point, if you bothered to think about it, is that men I reference couldn’t give one hoot what the woman in question wants. It’s not just a preference - which, of course, everyone is entitled to - it’s that, they want a woman to be only what they want her to be. It wouldn’t occur to them to find a woman who fits their ideals (probably because they don’t exist) - no, far easier to find a woman and make her conform. These aren’t cases where a man has a preference and keeps it to himself, it’s when he actively seeks to influence a woman’s choices. THAT’S what I have an issue with.

Which isn’t what the OP was talking about. And also isn’t just something men do either. How many times do we see posts about women complaining their husbands just aren’t what they want them to be? Off out too much at their “hobby” or workaholics or not doing housework etc. Women marry or have kids with men then complain they are essentially still the same as before they married them and why won’t they change. I guess the men you are referencing are just a bit more superficial about what they are looking for in a partner.

It tricks you into thinking you need it

Like virtually everything else being flogged on the high street and in the supermarket and all over the internet then...

To all the women saying you don’t do it for men, you do it for yourself, tell me, if you lived on a desert island would you bother to put on any slap?

Probably not. Why? Because there’d be no one to see you.

Not even a desert island. I’ve often wondered if women who wear make up, do it in the house if they aren’t planning on going anywhere and if so, how does that sit with “I’m doing it for me”

Like virtually everything else being flogged on the high street and in the supermarket and all over the internet then...

To be fair, the money spent on advertising in the beauty/fashion industry isn’t exactly equal to that of most other things we buy. Heinz aren’t playing on my insecurities when they try to convince me to buy their beanz.

I have never worn make-up and men don't care. They are fine with a natual look.

I also prefer men who don't wear make-up.

I don't think it is a big deal. Men, like women have preferences. Some prefer a natural look, others like a look that has a little make-up, others like a lot of make-up. A preference for no make-up doesn't make some misogynist. Many women don't wear make-up. It is okay for men to like us too!

@BoredZelda, men expressing a preference for women who don't wear makeup is such an established thing that it is worthy of comment here. It's not sexist to point out sexism and complain about sexists. They happen to be men and we're not obliged to pretend they're not.

Men who make remarks like this, either to women or to other men, are so blithely lacking in self awareness that they fail to appreciate how arrogant they are, and how faulty is their assumption that women wear makeup for their benefit.

Nobody asked their opinion. It's yet another example of men trying to tell women how they should live their lives, mansplaining to the nth degree.

@JulieBeds

I see your point to some extent but I don't think women wear makeup specifically for men. People are drawn to beauty, whether it's beautiful scenery, beautiful plants, beautiful art, beautiful people etc.

When I was a teenager my mother would ask me to put some makeup on before we went out because she wanted people to think that she had a beautiful daughter. Clearly the aim wasn't to attract men.

I once knew someone who disapproved of women wearing makeup, but that person had a very beautiful home with very expensive furniture etc. Surely the aim here is also to impress people? Is this any less shallow?

I wear make up every day, I work from home and only my dog sees me, I absolutely love the whole process, I find it really relaxing putting on my make up, it’s my morning ritual, cup of tea, breakfast news on the tv whilst doing my face, it’s one of my favourite parts of the day. I can honestly hand on heart say if I was the last human on earth I would still do this, I enjoy the whole process, I would still also shower, put deodorant on, brush my teeth, wash and blow dry my hair, wear perfume and wear nice clothes, it’s just something I enjoy doing.

@mathanxiety

Why don't you think it is possible for men to be attracted to women who don't like make-up.

I don't wear make-up and I find this thread full of comments about how no man could ever find me attractive and would be lying if he said he did pretty nasty for women to be saying about women. Women on this thread seem to care a lot more about this than any man I have ever met and other than women on here thinking I must be hideous and no man could ever possibly honestly think a woman with no make-up was even remotely attractive...that hasn't been my experience with men. It doesn't make men sexist to find women like me attractive.

@D0lphine

They mean they like natural looking makeup in quiet colours.

Or sometimes they mean they don't like really obvious surgery like really obvious fake lips, boobs, butts, Botox, fillers, facelifts.

Yes / I think that’s what it cones down to

I wear makeup every day. I wore it when I lived alone, on days of a weekend when I'd be in by myself. I also wear clothes that make me feel good. I work from home mostly, but don't wear lounge wear.

Conversely, I don't colour my hair, it's completely silver because that is how I like it to look. I'm late 40s.

Munsnet loves to chastise women for wearing makeup.

This thread has reminded me of this utterly brilliant Sailor J video

@MidnightMeltdown

That rings true. I am sorry you had that guy try that on you. What a creep and hypocrite.

My ex-BIL used to say this to my sister. I never liked it as it somehow felt like a put down. It used to hurt her feelings.

@Gwenhwyfar

"See what I did there? My opinion is as valid as yours."

It's not actually.
Even though we often say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' it's not actually true. There are common beauty standards within certain populations that can be measured so you could take 1k women with and without makeup and have 1k strangers rank them and see whether they ones with makeup are ranked higher and you would see that your opinion is in the minority.

What a bizarre thing to say! People's opinions are equally as valid, regardless of how many or few people agree with them.

There's so much primping and preening nowadays. I assume it means natural looking, no fillers, extensions, fake tanned, foundation, caterpillar eyebrows etc.

My boys are still young, but I'm dreading what kind of girls they'll bring home in the dust and future 😂 Actually one of my (gay) male cousins looks like a male Ken doll, which is also horrific, so I appreciate it may not just be girls who look trashy!!

What a bizarre thing to say!
People's opinions are equally as valid, regardless of how many or few people agree with them.

I met a flat earther a couple of years ago. Was his opinion on the shape of the earth s valid as those of people with scientific proof? Of course not.

The mere holding of an opinion does not somehow render it valid. Stupid, misguided opinions are available everywhere.

@Iamthewombat

What a bizarre thing to say! People's opinions are equally as valid, regardless of how many or few people agree with them.

I met a flat earther a couple of years ago. Was his opinion on the shape of the earth s valid as those of people with scientific proof? Of course not.

The mere holding of an opinion does not somehow render it valid. Stupid, misguided opinions are available everywhere.

You can have your own opinion. You can't have your own facts.

Adjusted for inflation, Gone With The Wind is the highest grossing film ever made. That's a fact.

I didn't like Gone With The Wind. That's an opinion.

Just because many other people did like it, doesn't mean my own opinion isn't valid either.

Not sure why you're conflating facts with opinions.

Ha love the Amy Shuchmer skit @movintothecountry 👏👏👏
So many men say this. I've had this as a compliment on numerous occasions. How I'm "naturally" beautiful. If a date I bite my tounge and certainly don't reveal that I've had facial surgery, enhancements, dye my hair, LVL lashes, HD brows and expensive, well applied skincare and make up. Oh also shape wear, working out and wearing stereotypically sexy clothes - dresses heels rather than jeans and trainers. You know just causal and natural 😂

Dosn't bother me. Not everyone likes the perfect fake look. . I don't agree it's misogyny.

On beauty, written a few weeks ago, but relevant here:

I don't even wear make-up, never have. For me, beauty in people is not a static visual. Beauty is in motion, aliveness, the way a body moves or expressions flicker across a face. How clearly the inner person shines through. Botox, fillers, even make-up gunks all that up.

I can look at pictures and know that they are objectively attractive, that society considers them beautiful, but it's a detached assessment. I am drawn to the person who looks like they have lived and laughed and loved and cried and just tramped off a mountain through a thicket of
brambles; with a lifetime of stories; whose spirit vividly animates body and face.