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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you left the corporate world to go into teaching what was the biggest shock?

452 replies

coodawoodashooda · 04/04/2022 20:47

Just wondering. Usually we have threads from fed up teachers. Im a teacher, not looking for a fight. Just interested.

OP posts:
Flipflopssndsocks · 07/04/2022 19:10

I think it’s the case that salaries are very different in certain schools, subjects and areas. Big differences in percentage of budget spent on salaries between some schools and a bigger difference too in how it’s allocated.

donquixotedelamancha · 07/04/2022 19:15

How many teachers are on 36K??? That’s M6 on main pay scale.

Presumably it includes TLRs and Leadership scale. The top 5-10% will drag up the average massively.

I doubt there are any other professions requiring similar qualifications with such a low average.

LittleBearPad · 07/04/2022 19:19

Salaries are higher for leadership teachers (excluding headteachers), the average salary in 2019 being £54,911.

The average salary for a headteacher was £71,655 in 2019.

LittleBearPad · 07/04/2022 19:19

From the link above - not sure why I bolded it.

Jamboree01 · 07/04/2022 19:56
Can’t tell if they have included unqualified teachers in those statistics. They are mentioned in the article but I doubt they are included in the data as that would change things dramatically.

Have you come across any more recent ‘statistics’?

Of course I question government statistics… don’t most people? Particularly when it comes to education, nhs etc.

OutlookStalking · 07/04/2022 20:09

M6 is top of the main pay scale - so rather than an "average" as people usually take it to mean it is actually the most they can earn , after about 5 years teaching. It will then stay at that level!

LittleBearPad · 07/04/2022 22:15

@OutlookStalking

M6 is top of the main pay scale - so rather than an "average" as people usually take it to mean it is actually the most they can earn , after about 5 years teaching. It will then stay at that level!
Well it’s not the most teachers can earn as they can cross the threshold to the upper pay scale and be paid more.
LittleBearPad · 07/04/2022 22:19

More up to date information - mean pay for classroom teachers £38,400

explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-workforce-in-england

monkeysox · 07/04/2022 22:25

And your current pay band doesn't have to be honoured if you move to a different school.

Jamboree01 · 07/04/2022 23:07

[quote LittleBearPad]More up to date information - mean pay for classroom teachers £38,400

explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-workforce-in-england[/quote]
More government data spin. That data is not realistic.

Again, I don’t believe this includes the large number of unqualified teachers out there.

LittleBearPad · 07/04/2022 23:25

Anecdata rather than data you don’t like?

Non qualified teachers are about 5% of teachers. They won’t skew the data that much.

Jamboree01 · 08/04/2022 00:29

@LittleBearPad

Anecdata rather than data you don’t like?

Non qualified teachers are about 5% of teachers. They won’t skew the data that much.

And you know this for a fact? Do you compile the data? Is that why your responses to me are a little on the aggressive side?!

It’s not about whether I like it or not, it’s not the reality I see or experience so I’m questioning it. Simple as that.

Inner city schools in particular have a large number of unqualified, and newly qualified, teachers.

LittleBearPad · 08/04/2022 01:58

Non qualified teachers over the last few years have gone from 17,000 or so to just under 25,000. C.5% or so of total teacher numbers.

LittleBearPad · 08/04/2022 01:59

I don’t compile the data. It’s easy to find on the government website.

SonicBroom · 08/04/2022 06:15

@Jamboree01, I don’t read @LittleBearPad as being aggressive in the slightest, in fact you come across as being rather defensive simply because the very robust data provided doesn’t support your experience or narrative. That’s understandable as, to quote the old saying, no family has 2.4 children. Perhaps I can try to help though.

If you read through the linked methodology pages you can quickly see the following definitions:

^Classroom teacher: teachers on the unqualified, main and upper teacher pay ranges and the leading practitioner pay range. Classroom teacher average salary was £38,400.

Leadership teacher: head, deputy and assistant head teacher pay ranges. Also included are advisory teachers. Leadership teacher (excluding headteachers) average salary was £56,400.

Head teacher: Head teachers and executive head teachers who are responsible for more than one school. Headteacher average salary was £73,500.^

So to answer your first point, UQTs are very much included.

The methodology is completely transparent. It is also clear that the pay statistics include allowances (because that is what people are actually earning). It is contract based data and therefore includes PT salaries too, stripping out those reported as FTE. You can go in and further examine the impact of trends in education settings such as an increase in academies in the SE etc but that still doesn’t change the fact that the mean average classroom teacher salary is £38,400 - which when we pro-rate that to 52 weeks (including statutory allowance for holidays and bank holidays) means that it’s a salary equivalent to £51,200 in the private sector, on the basis of the argument that teachers don’t get paid for their holidays. Even if you were to interpolate the argument and suggest that teachers work the equivalent of half their holidays, you’d still be looking at a pro-rated salary of around £45,000 plus pensions.

You can use the linked database to add the value of a teachers pension should you wish to. To summarise for you however:

“The Teachers’ Pension Scheme is one of only eight guaranteed by the Government; provides additional benefits linked to salary; is inflation-proof to offer teachers a secure retirement; and offers the typical teacher around £7,000 in employer contributions every year.

This makes the scheme one of the most generous schemes on offer – in comparison, Work Place Pension rules require private sector employers to pay a minimum 3% contribution to an employee’s pension, which is around £900 a year for someone earning the same salary as a typical teacher.”

We are now reaching the realms of £60k a year gross average equivalent in the private sector, where I guarantee you that people earning that amount are not drinking coffee all day and clocking off at ten to five.

Needless to say it’s also clear that the data does not include information from:

-Independent schools
-Non-maintained special schools
-Other further education colleges (FE).
-Some former FE funded sixth form colleges which are now classed as academy schools are excluded.

… which would further pull the actual average salary UP, not least because roles in these institution are open to all teachers to apply for.

Note that the methodology advises comparisons shouldn’t be made year on year because averages also reflect changes in the composition of the workforce. In a scenario where a high number of experienced teachers were leaving to be replaced by UQT, you’d expect to see the average come down. You seem to think that’s a prevalent issue, so either the UQTs are being paid more than you think or there aren’t actually very many of them.

If you’d like to do any further research I’d suggest that you download the data and observe the difference between median and mean salaries. Typically, the distribution of salary data is skewed by a small number of people in a population earning a disproportionately high amount meaning that the mean will be higher than the median. However, since this data excludes Leadership and Headteacher data as well as eg independent schools, I wouldn’t expect the distribution to be as significantly impacted as in a normal population income distribution scale. If as you say a very high proportion of the workforce are on low salaries then this will be evident in the median. However, you’d also need to take into account the extent to which that might be influenced by the number of new entrants you seem to expect, and the likelihood that they will move up the pay scale as their careers progress. You can further break down the data geographically if you’d like to. A quick look shows that the average classroom teacher salary in North Yorks for example is £37,813 whilst in Lewisham it is £44,921. The high number of teachers outside London as a proportion of the total teacher population, coupled with the relatively narrow income distribution range is likely to be the main reason that the England average is closer to the regional average than the London average.

Having reflected on this data, if you’re concerned that your pay and opportunities do not reflect what others seem to be earning then perhaps a conversation with your school would be more helpful than simply trying to argue on here. Likewise, if you do have an alternative but equally robust and well sourced set of data then please do share.

SonicBroom · 08/04/2022 06:23

*Sorry the above should read Tower Hamlets, not Lewisham

Jamboree01 · 08/04/2022 08:01

‘ where I guarantee you that people earning that amount are not drinking coffee all day and clocking off at ten to five.’

‘if you’re concerned that your pay and opportunities do not reflect what others seem to be earning then perhaps a conversation with your school would be more helpful than simply trying to argue on here.’

Wow.

SonicBroom · 08/04/2022 08:22

Anything to say on the data @Jamboree01 now that all your points have been addressed? So far you’ve contributed nothing of substance to this debate.

Onionpatch · 08/04/2022 09:09

@SonicBroom - i have a mental block on the maths of how you work out 38k becomes 52k. To me 44.6 weeks is 85% of 52.
I still think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of directed time and underdirected time in the contracts so you cant do an exact round up anyway. In particular the senior leader pays scales mean that the directed hours on certain days dont apply so half terms in particular are very much working time. So included in the average teacher pay is many teachers that are on 52 week contracts.

Im not a teacher, im admin in a school and my pay is very much term time only pay. I would love teacher terms and conditions but I still think you are misunderstanding them.

SonicBroom · 08/04/2022 09:18

@Onionpatch (12m salary / 39) * 52

Both groups are entitled to statutory holiday and bank hols.

I do understand the difference, I’m an ex teacher but I left as I wanted to pursue a specific field of research. But all jobs have directed and undirected time, again it’s not unique to teaching.

Onionpatch · 08/04/2022 09:29

@SonicBroom- thanks for explaining the maths.
Ive never had a job with undirected time. Mine have always been x hours, x weeks a year, in x place with an annual leave entitlement. The anticipation being everything i needed to do the job would be done in those hours. Ive sometimes done overtime because i havent got everything done but thats different.

Angelil · 08/04/2022 10:15

@Debroglie

Yes the actual teaching and learning stuff is fine imo. It’s all the other crap that really ruins the job. And we have too many contact hours in this country. I don’t think any other country comes close to expecting 22.5 hours teaching and 2.5 hours form time each week.
Meh, I did that while teaching in France, and now do less than that in the Netherlands - but other colleagues in my school in NL definitely do closer to that amount. It really depends on your individual school and the responsibilities you have there - much less than on the country you’re in.
LittleBearPad · 08/04/2022 10:25

@Jamboree01

‘ where I guarantee you that people earning that amount are not drinking coffee all day and clocking off at ten to five.’

‘if you’re concerned that your pay and opportunities do not reflect what others seem to be earning then perhaps a conversation with your school would be more helpful than simply trying to argue on here.’

Wow.

You can check the average salaries at your school as well vs similar schools or schools in your area to see if your school is out of kilter with local equivalents. Also works with income and other expenses. It’s very interesting - though I’m not sure if 2021 data is up yet.
LittleBearPad · 08/04/2022 10:26

schools-financial-benchmarking.service.gov.uk/

It’s here.

MaidenSpeech · 08/04/2022 12:27

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

Or are teaching jobs normally advertised at a weekly wage rather than a yearly salary? Is this where the confusion comes from?

As I explained upthread, teachers are contracted for 30-35 fewer working days per year. Same contractual holidays, as per employment law. That leaves them with those days unpaid, not included in either work days or holidays.

Does that help?

When you strike what is your daily deduction? 1/260 or 1/195?