To think elite sport isn't inclusive

[Dinosauria]

And the main reason is financial.

Lots in the news about how people should/shouldn't be included in sport and the loudest voice is that sport must be inclusive.

But it isn't, elite sport cost a lot of money, amateur sport costs a lot of money, there must be a significantly greater number of people that are excluded from sport than those that are excluded based on their biological sex.

Where is the fury when it comes to children not being able to afford to participate?

Even football/rugby grassroots is run by volunteers but still around £80-100 a year and then boots/kit etc and then match fees, fuel to and from matches etc.
Swimming, £100 per month for county level plus race fees and fuel to travel
Cycling, triathlon all have large fees and kit requirements, whilst of course it is possible to manage on a shoe string when you compete for fun as soon as it becomes more serious it becomes expensive.

Travel, hotels all become a necessity when you start competing at a higher level.

Top Olympians in the UK are four times as likely to be privately educated than the population as a whole.

Sporting bodies should be looking into this rather than denying biology.

No, elite sport is not inclusive but the whole trans controversy isn't just about elite sports, it's about the right of girls and women to their own sports.

Everyone knows why we have separate sports for men and women (except, apparently, from activists who keep making hilarious claims such as they exist because men don't want to be beaten by women, etc) - but the silence from the people who KNOW BETTER has been lamentable.

Allowing trans-identifying males into women's sports will be the erasure of sports for the vast majority of women. It's time more people stoood up.

No it's not inclusive because you have to be talented and not everyone is.

Elite level sport is often more a competition as to how much money, free time and opportunities a person has.

This is why the UK medal count would be knackered if more people in poorer, developing nations could afford to do sports like dressage, sailing, skiing and toboggan.

Dunno, there seem to be quite a few men in elite football who are definitely not from privileged backgrounds.

I'm not that interested in sport to be fair but I don't understand why anyone would expect their hobby to be subsidised by others.

I have an expensive hobby but I fund it myself.

If they can get sponsors then that's fine, obviously.

YANBU, the point about elite sport is that it's for the elite - it's not meant for run of the mill participants. The reason why top-level male sport has traditionally been more lucrative than top-level female sport is because it's generally been the case that the male variant is at a higher level than the female one. This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I agree that cost is a serious factor amateur sport, but I'm not sure what the answer is really. Tournaments have to be held at facilities that are of a certain standard, building and maintaining the facilities costs money. The same with accommodation, tournaments have to be held where everyone can get to, it's impossible for everyone to be able to attend from home.

I thought the same. 99% of us are excluded, because we aren't biologically good enough, and won't be no matter how much training we do. So it really isn't unfair if transwomen are excluded for a different biological reason. (In any case, they, and other women, should be allowed to compete in the "men" section, which can be renamed "open." The fact that they may not be good enough to qualify for top-level competition just puts them in the same boat as 99% of the other people that competition is theoretically open to.)

Nicholethejewellert, have you ever seen this site - please have a look? How long do you think it will be before women competing against men are competing on a level playing field. I'd guess a couple of millennia, if ever .

boysvswomen.com/#/

Sorry, Getoff and Nichole, transwomen (biological men) have no place in women's sport.

@darlingdodo

Dunno, there seem to be quite a few men in elite football who are definitely not from privileged backgrounds.

That's because there's money to be made. See also boxing. It's financially lucrative for people to take very young boys and pay/provide support/provide facilities to develop their talent - they get chucked back very quickly if the talent doesn't pan out.

Other sports, not so much. A family member took their class for a taster session in a minority sport recently and one of the class was an off the scale natural talent. Coach linked to national set-up wanted to approach the parents about clubs, training etc etc etc. But parents have very chaotic lifestyles and can't get their kids to school never mind training so that particular talent will go un-nurtured most likely.

All sport is pretty much not inclusive.

I find this a really tough question, because elite sport is by its very nature limited to only the best of the best. Elite basketball is only for tall people, all elite gymnasts are fairly short etc, ie physical attributes that are just luck if you happen to have them. But the financial barrier is very real. Funding is limited and some sports get vastly more than others at Olympic level, do if you can't afford to pay your way, then you can't participate. And the whole private education thing is largely about access to opportunities in childhood, which is what you need to reach the upper echelons of sport.

Elite sport is by definition exclusive. It excludes anyone not good enough. You can't chose to play for Arsenal, or be in the Olympics, or go to the World Gymnastic championships. You get selected. Those taking performance altering drugs can get banned.

Some sports have weight categories. You have to compete in the correct one.

Some competitions have age categories. You have to compete in the correct one.

You may have to be a citizen of a country to compete in a competition.
Or go to a certain school.

Disabled sports have categories to make competition fair.

And as already pointed out, money can play a part.

Sex is another category.

What aren't categories (or shouldn't be)... race, sexual orientation, martial status, your hairstyle or how you dress, your religion etc.

I’d rather see “open” competition and “natal-female only” competitions, simply because the strongest men will always be stronger than the strongest women because of hormones. Unless we restrict women’s competition to “people who have never had testosterone levels above xyz (and can prove it” of course.

100% agree. But I do think it depends on the sport itself. My daughter for example plays semi-pro football. She started at Grass Roots and happened to be really good. Now we travel most weekends to fixtures around the country plus other associated costs. As far as sports go though it's one of the more inclusive (cheaper ones).
A friends child does Tennis (and is v good) - those costs are extortionate! She can afford it.

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I can't believe what I've just read. Given you don't believe in physical differences, presumably you think (for example) that women are on average shorter than men because they didn't really try as hard to grow when they were young.

What makes you think men are nearer their maximum potential and women aren't? If women 50 years from now are as good as men today, why won't men also be proportionately better, so women still can't compete with them?

@darlingdodo

Sorry, Getoff and Nichole, transwomen (biological men) have no place in women's sport.

That exactly what I think. I think you misunderstood my post.

There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

What the actual fuck? You mean women's sport will end up being dominated by transwomen that there's no point separating it at all?

Because there no way that actual biological women will ever be able to compete against men.

There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

You mean there will be no difference because there will only be male competitors and how would that be a good thing for women?

I generally agree, but on the point about Olympians and private education; i think there are plenty of private schools offering big bursaries to kids with sporting talent. So increasing accessibility rather than being rich kids to start with.

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

This approach will result in Male Team A and Male Team B. Yay equality!!! I don't think so.

We've worked very hard here and pumped a lot of money, thought, and time into improving our medals performances for the men's and the women's.

Obviously sports are exclusive. Otherwise we could all say "well I want a go" and people would have to watch random members of the public doing races, or a heavyweight boxer "being included" in a super middleweight match.

PS no one can consent on behalf of others eg to give away sex-based rights.

@Nicholethejewellery There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I would genuinely love to hear your explanation for this.

And you're 100% right OP, wealth is the biggest barrier to amateur sport and without amateur sport you will never know if you are capable of stepping up to elite sport.

My university requires you to buy a >£100 gym membership in one payment to join any of their sports clubs, whether you use the gym facilities or not. That's just not affordable for so many students and suddenly you're excluded from sports at university!

Not sure why any of the trans stuff is being raised in this context, as all it will do is derail.

Doing anything at competitive level is expensive, whether it is dance, gymnastics, team sports. Heck, I was in a pipe band and it cost a fortune.

This is why organisations are consistently fund raising and why there is lottery funding available. I’m not sure what you think the alternative solution is, things need to be paid for. Most organisations will subsidise young people who are struggling. Who else do you think should pay for it?

@monsterpup

And you're 100% right OP, wealth is the biggest barrier to amateur sport and without amateur sport you will never know if you are capable of stepping up to elite sport.

My university requires you to buy a >£100 gym membership in one payment to join any of their sports clubs, whether you use the gym facilities or not. That's just not affordable for so many students and suddenly you're excluded from sports at university!

Wow, that's shocking! Is this on top of other fees a particular sport might have?

By definition elite cannot be inclusive. Maybe you mean the road to being elite is not inclusive, and that I agree with.
I might have hidden elite skiing skills that my parents were unable to unleash. My son might have the skills to be an F1 driver. We'll never know.

For many sports though, someone with the skill WILL rise to the top - be spotted at school, or by a local amateur club.

Sporting bodies should be looking into this AND transgender issue, the two are not mutually exclusive.