To think elite sport isn't inclusive

[Dinosauria]

And the main reason is financial.

Lots in the news about how people should/shouldn't be included in sport and the loudest voice is that sport must be inclusive.

But it isn't, elite sport cost a lot of money, amateur sport costs a lot of money, there must be a significantly greater number of people that are excluded from sport than those that are excluded based on their biological sex.

Where is the fury when it comes to children not being able to afford to participate?

Even football/rugby grassroots is run by volunteers but still around £80-100 a year and then boots/kit etc and then match fees, fuel to and from matches etc.
Swimming, £100 per month for county level plus race fees and fuel to travel
Cycling, triathlon all have large fees and kit requirements, whilst of course it is possible to manage on a shoe string when you compete for fun as soon as it becomes more serious it becomes expensive.

Travel, hotels all become a necessity when you start competing at a higher level.

Top Olympians in the UK are four times as likely to be privately educated than the population as a whole.

Sporting bodies should be looking into this rather than denying biology.

The cricket All-stars and Dynamos programmes are a good start. But £40 is a lot for many people (even if for the little ones getting a bat, bag t-shirt etc included. Older kids only get a tshirt)

Ellie Baker who spoke out about trans women and sport today on Twitter is an elite 800m runner and is not from a rich family. I'm sure her family made sacrifices but she certainly does not fit into the privileged box.

There are some brilliant organisations helping poorer kids into sport (the Diane Modahl foundation etc). Diane Modahl's husband used to take Aimee Pratt food to the track when she was a teen as she wasn't being fed properly at home. I think they took her in as well. She made the Olympics this year.

@Getoff

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I can't believe what I've just read. Given you don't believe in physical differences, presumably you think (for example) that women are on average shorter than men because they didn't really try as hard to grow when they were young.

What makes you think men are nearer their maximum potential and women aren't? If women 50 years from now are as good as men today, why won't men also be proportionately better, so women still can't compete with them?

You're spoiling the trans fantasy for him ,that men and women will somehow blend into one another and will all be the same and transwomen will help women to raise their sports standards. I visualise a hulking great transwoman lecturing tiny female competitors that they just have to grow more to be a winner like him. Sport is based on the fairest division of athletes as possible. Welterweights don:t fight featherweights; full grown men don:t race against ten year old boys; men don't compete against less physically powerful women. The reason is that the results would be grotesque. Transwomen have the same physical advantages as the men. I think transwomen should have their own category in sport. That way everyone gets a fair chance.

@Simonjt

It depends on the sport, in some sports (rugby for example), if you have the talent then the path to becoming elite isn’t expensive. You’re looking at around £80-120 a year, if you can’t afford it kit etc is provided.

When I think about the other lads who were in the academy with me no one was wealthy, no one was really even middle class.

As someone who grew up in poverty and had to be financially independent from 17, my lack of money never held me back in rugby. In fact my earnings and the flexibility of rugby are the only reason I could attend university.

Whilst the 80-100 pounds a year is possible and rugby clubs are supportive, good teams travel widely and if you end up in a development pathway it is linked to a Premership club. This can be be a long way away from where you live, even weekly training could be financially impossible.

@Nicholethejewellery

YANBU, the point about elite sport is that it's for the elite - it's not meant for run of the mill participants. The reason why top-level male sport has traditionally been more lucrative than top-level female sport is because it's generally been the case that the male variant is at a higher level than the female one. This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I agree that cost is a serious factor amateur sport, but I'm not sure what the answer is really. Tournaments have to be held at facilities that are of a certain standard, building and maintaining the facilities costs money. The same with accommodation, tournaments have to be held where everyone can get to, it's impossible for everyone to be able to attend from home.

Is this for real?

As someone who played fulltime pro, I am aware how it works. You can get funding for travel, sometimes its essentially an additional payment, travel pass etc. I was given a season ticket as it was the best option due to the location of my ground.

I think to get to the top level of any sport takes a huge commitment from both the competitor and their parents. This includes the huge cost and time implications.

My son rides. He has his own pony. He has just started competing at a very low level. A lot of the kids and sometimes adults he is competing against are in a much more fortunate position than him (and I will freely admit he is more than fortunate to have this hobby in the first place.). They often have several expensive ponies, one for each discipline. A ménage to train in which is especially useful in the dark winter nights, parents who have ridden their whole lives who can help them and even ride their ponies while they are at school. My son is very fortunate in that we can afford the pony in the first place (although relatively cheap in today's market) and lessons and equipment but he is still at a disadvantage. It's definitely not a level playing field.

To be fair, by definition elite sport is exclusive. In that it's for the elite. The best. Not the rest of us.

Sport in general should be inclusive yes. It should also be fair. I suspect there are many ways inclusive and fair are not met and some ways they are in conflict. Money is certainly one obstacle to both. In some cases probably overwhelmingly.

@MossyBottom

No it's not inclusive because you have to be talented and not everyone is.

You have completely missed the point the OP has made. Not everyone can afford to take part, even if they have the talent, or if they had the potential to develop the talent. E.g child A goes to your big standard state school. Their parents can’t afford to send them to sports clubs or afford the required kit. Child B’s parents can afford to indulge every sporting interest their child sets their sights on. They can afford to send their child to a private school where they receive a first class education which provides them access to an extensive range of extra curricular sporting activities. Child B is provided the opportunities that child A does not have access to. This is inequitable.

Elite things aren't inclusive by definition.

But as far as kids getting on track to eventually be involved in elite sports, yes, in many cases those with more financial means are advantaged. It's why events like the Olympics going on about fairness and such always seems such a load of s&%t. We all know the athletes from the richest countries will win most of the medals. And increasingly the athletes from poor countries end up representing rich ones.

That is, the really talented ones from poor countries end up representing richer ones.

@Nicholethejewellery

YANBU, the point about elite sport is that it's for the elite - it's not meant for run of the mill participants. The reason why top-level male sport has traditionally been more lucrative than top-level female sport is because it's generally been the case that the male variant is at a higher level than the female one. This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

I agree that cost is a serious factor amateur sport, but I'm not sure what the answer is really. Tournaments have to be held at facilities that are of a certain standard, building and maintaining the facilities costs money. The same with accommodation, tournaments have to be held where everyone can get to, it's impossible for everyone to be able to attend from home.

Wow, I think this may the stupidest thing I’ve read in a long time 🤣

I can’t work out if you’re a trans activist or just really dim. Although I guess those go together.

"Same for almost literally everything"

^ That.
Compared to many other 'top' level at hobbies or careers, sport is about as egalitarian and equitable as the average.

The word 'elite' means it excludes the masses, its just for the few. In practice that means the few who can get good enough, for that you need talent, funding, time to train, the right support, nutrition, healthcare and commitment. It excludes most of us.

I've seen @Nicholethejewellery make some spectacularly strange comments on a number of threads now.... can't work out if they are here to stir or if they genuinely hold these opinions.

Nicholethejewellery This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

You're seriously expecting biological men to evolve so as to be able to get pregnant and carry babies?

Or you believe that men have reached their ceiling and women will simply catch up?

This is quite bizarre. You can surely see that there are many physical differences between men and women which will make this impossible.

With regard to the trans issue, sport can either be inclusive or it can be fair. It can't actually be both where the trans issue is concerned because to allow trans women to compete with natal women is unfair on the latter.

For me personally, I think in this particular instance the rights of women to compete fairly in sport trumps the rights of trans women to be included. I believe most of us think this way, but it's hard to argue against inclusivity as it goes against the grain when so many of us have fought so long and so hard for greater inclusivity in other areas of life.

As for the OP in general, I think it illustrates quite well the difference in mindset between someone who is going to be successful in sport and someone who is not. The former just gets on with it, tries to win or get selected or whatever, trains through adversity and remains focussed. The latter just criticises and thinks up excuses for not doing it.

Quite interesting really.

@thing47

With regard to the trans issue, sport can either be inclusive or it can be fair. It can't actually be both where the trans issue is concerned because to allow trans women to compete with natal women is unfair on the latter.

For me personally, I think in this particular instance the rights of women to compete fairly in sport trumps the rights of trans women to be included. I believe most of us think this way, but it's hard to argue against inclusivity as it goes against the grain when so many of us have fought so long and so hard for greater inclusivity in other areas of life.

Trans people aren't excluded. They can compete in their correct sex class. Why are people taking "excluding males from female sport" to mean "excluded from competing entirely"?

Female only events are the only way to be properly inclusive to women. Otherwise they get pushed out by males and really do have nowhere to compete.

I'm sure some sports are more privileged than others, cricket for example is often cited. I know a few kids though at football academies such as Wolves and BCFC and the kids there are scouted young and most definitely do not come from privilege.The clubs open up a whole world to them including sometimes private education as well.

With regard to the trans issue, sport can either be inclusive or it can be fair.

What is not inclusive about people being restricted to competing within their sex class?

It's simply an acknowledgement that you can't change sex and your sex actually matters in these situations.

I believe most of us think this way, but it's hard to argue against inclusivity as it goes against the grain when so many of us have fought so long and so hard for greater inclusivity in other areas of life.

The sort of inclusivity that the trans community is looking for here would only come at the expense of biological fact and women's rights.

We have to acknowledge that rather than simply going along with it because we've decided 'inclusivity = good'

Surely "elite" by definition is not inclusive.

And quite right too, it would be daft for weaklings like me to be given an Olympic medal for weightlifting just to be inclusive.

As for the OP in general, I think it illustrates quite well the difference in mindset between someone who is going to be successful in sport and someone who is not. The former just gets on with it, tries to win or get selected or whatever, trains through adversity and remains focussed. The latter just criticises and thinks up excuses for not doing it.

I disagree. I think involved parents or guardians, and/or financial stability is probably as important as mindset. I know a boy who is in the national tennis squad for his age group. Most weekends his dad takes him to competitions that might be 4 or 5 hours drive away. Before Christmas he competed in America. However good his mindset, he wouldn't be competing at that level if his parents weren't making sacrifices and willing and able to take him to the training and competitions.

I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

You have got to be on the wind up?