To think elite sport isn't inclusive

[Dinosauria]

And the main reason is financial.

Lots in the news about how people should/shouldn't be included in sport and the loudest voice is that sport must be inclusive.

But it isn't, elite sport cost a lot of money, amateur sport costs a lot of money, there must be a significantly greater number of people that are excluded from sport than those that are excluded based on their biological sex.

Where is the fury when it comes to children not being able to afford to participate?

Even football/rugby grassroots is run by volunteers but still around £80-100 a year and then boots/kit etc and then match fees, fuel to and from matches etc.
Swimming, £100 per month for county level plus race fees and fuel to travel
Cycling, triathlon all have large fees and kit requirements, whilst of course it is possible to manage on a shoe string when you compete for fun as soon as it becomes more serious it becomes expensive.

Travel, hotels all become a necessity when you start competing at a higher level.

Top Olympians in the UK are four times as likely to be privately educated than the population as a whole.

Sporting bodies should be looking into this rather than denying biology.

I was never going to be elite in any sport. Not flexible enough for gymnastics and too small in other sports.
What I can have is a decent age grading. I can be average or better than average for a SW40-45 at parkrun/ running races. I could potentually aim for GFA qualification into events like the London Marathon. A transwoman with their physical advantages of height, muscle, hormones and pelvis that hasn't had to try passing two human heads through it is at a major advantage and their participation corrupts the statistics that I can use to measure myself against my peers.

Women have fought hard to even be able to participate in sport. Katherine Switzer entered the Boston Marathon as K Switzer in 1967. Women were not allowed to participate in marathons in case of damage to their reproductive organs When a marshal realised that a woman had the audacity to participate, she was manhandled. She broke free and completed the race and was influential in women finally being allowed to professionally compete in marathons. The first women's olympic marathon was in 1984- less than 40 years ago!

Women's sport is still a long way behind mens in profile, recognition, funding and glory. There's been some recent progress but it's not something that can be taken for granted.

In amateur sport, girls need to see women participate and excel to encourage their participation. Without amateurs, you can't identify and train the elites. Single sex spaces can be important for safety and nurture (this also applies to male minority sport-my sons rapidly lost interest in gymnastics when they became the final boy in the local class)

If girls look at sports podia and see that the winners were never on an even footing with the other competitors that were born female, that dampens desire to particpate and compete. We already have campaigns like This Girl Can to empower girls and women to be active and overcome difficulties and inhibitions. Allowing people born with male physical advantage to participate as female undermines women's sport from the elites right through to grassroots, amateur level.

Sport is eliteist to some degree varying with the sport, but ignoring the biological differences of transwomen and women damages all levels of women's sport.

Note how there has not yet been any issues of transmen in professional male sport... there are few sports where they would be put at a major advantage.

@TheOrigRights yep! I personally spent close to £200 overall on membership fees this year alone

[quote monsterpup]@TheOrigRights yep! I personally spent close to £200 overall on membership fees this year alone [/quote]
As a university student?

I think that's a lot, and I'm a professional with a good income.

Jesus.

Elite sport is not inclusive and will never be inclusive. It simply takes too much time and money to get someone up to the elite level for it to be any different. You can be the single most talented sportsperson on the planet but if you don't have the time and money to dedicate to training and competing it doesn't mean a thing.

That said, I think we have totally gone the wrong direction in terms of funding sports in this country. We've completely gone down the route of funding the sports which we do best at, which creates a completely circular loop of pumping more and more money into fewer and fewer sports in a pointless chase for medals and trophys.

The money should be going where it's actually needed and does the most good - at the grass roots level to encourage people to get into sports and keeping fit regardless of whether they will ever win wimbledon or not.

•This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.*

I guess this is logical response if you genuinely believe ‘trans woman are women’ in every respect and that therefore biology isn’t why sport is segregated by male/female?

That said, I think we have totally gone the wrong direction in terms of funding sports in this country. We've completely gone down the route of funding the sports which we do best at, which creates a completely circular loop of pumping more and more money into fewer and fewer sports in a pointless chase for medals and trophys.

Might also be the reason why sports like British Cycling are so ready to throw their female members under the bus by including a male elite cyclist who identifies as as women in women's cycling competitions.

I would regard myself as quite sporty (I cycle, run and row). For all of these sports there is a real effort at inclusion IME. It does absolutely help if you can afford all the best kit, but locally we have had some good successions at outreach and I run a local girls and women's cycle class. It is totally different to the question of transgender athletes. I am keen for everyone to be involved in sport, but I was most concerned to see that we came close to allowing an elite cyclist competing as a man to compete as a woman within just over 12 months of male competition. This simply is not fair and does IMV have implications for the participation of women at grass roots level.

I agree that sports shouldn't be exclusive based on economic grounds.

However, sports itself at a competitive level (anything extra-curricular to schools) is exclusive, it is the nature of the sports. You are in it to yes, have fun, but to win.

Female sports have been set aside as a sex-based division in order to be inclusive to women and girls. If you let males play in the female division you will very soon end up with Male and Open categories.

If anyone wants to ignore biology, then it should be the Male categories. Female and Open would work well for everybody.

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

Absolutely. In cycling, for example, women just need to adjust their pelvis shape, produce more red blood cells and increase their proportion of muscle mass and the type of muscle cells so they can compete effectively with transwomen.

Those women complaining this isn't fair just need to try harder.

The reason why top-level male sport has traditionally been more lucrative than top-level female sport is because it's generally been the case that the male variant is at a higher level than the female one. This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game.

Yes, to the point where no females can reach it.

@Dinosauria Don't get distracted by this. By all means campaign for greater access to sport for all. But the issue at hand is the erasure of female sport. We have spent the last 100 years fighting to get equal representation at the Olympics for women and we are still not there. Top male footballers receive salaries that equate to 1,627 of the world's greatest female players. Women and girls fight to have access to pitch time, coaches, kit behind hundreds of men and boys. If we have to share these already diluted resources with male bodied sports people, elite or otherwise, fewer women and girls will play sport. Why would anyone want that???

@nicholethejewellery... really??? So you think female sport is not worthwhile and it would be better if it was only men.. go back to the 1950's and allow us to fight for our daughters so that they can have equal access to sport.

Elite level sport is often more a competition as to how much money, free time and opportunities a person has.

Yes - and you might say this about many pursuits/careers that are desirable and highly competitive to get into - e.g. journalism, acting. They are out of the reach of the majority who have to spend most of their time doing a 'day job' and/or have no connections. Obviously there are exceptions based on luck or exceptional talent, but generally speaking, the wealthier you are, the more opportunities are open to you - in any field.

Perhaps someone could identify as being rich as Croesus and see if that helps.

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game

By pushing them all out. Super 🙄

I agree with CapMarvel and the OP. There's not really much of a way round it though is there? To be good - elite - takes a lot of time. That means ferrying kids all over, or waiting around while they go to clubs etc. Even that costs in terms of not working or limiting work options.

Perhaps someone could identify as being rich as Croesus and see if that helps.

Happy to 😆

I am heartily sick of all of this. Trans rights dont trump all other rights.

Have a seperate section for trans but dont degrade sport like this.

I've seen this loony "allow transwomen to compete in women's events because that'll make women better" argument a few times now. Is it the latest absurdity now they finally seem to have realised that humans aren't clownfish, or is it a troll? It's impossible to say who's taking the piss these days.

Whatever one feels about gender, we have to stop pretending that it's possible to change sex or that ones sex is somehow immaterial.

@TheKeatingFive

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game

By pushing them all out. Super 🙄

Exactly.

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories,

Yet in most cases the "elite" transwomen were only ever mediocre men.

Bridges seems to be an anomaly in that they are still competing at the top level of male sports. How you can't see that this person shouldn't be competing with women is beyond me.
Thomas was ranked 472 in the male rankings yet is number 1 in the female rankings.
Hubbard wasn't even very good as a male yet still qualified as an over aged unfit transwoman.

@ResisterRex

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

This approach will result in Male Team A and Male Team B. Yay equality!!! I don't think so.

We've worked very hard here and pumped a lot of money, thought, and time into improving our medals performances for the men's and the women's.

Obviously sports are exclusive. Otherwise we could all say "well I want a go" and people would have to watch random members of the public doing races, or a heavyweight boxer "being included" in a super middleweight match.

PS no one can consent on behalf of others eg to give away sex-based rights.

Thanks to you and pp, I also have no words to reply, I hope it was a joke.

BoredZelda because it is linked, I've been reading about the need to be inclusive yet I've first hand experience of very talented youngster having to give up their sport because their parents can no longer afford it (or more usually not be able to afford the step up to county/ regional) so its already not inclusive.

monsterpup that is awful, not surprising, but awful.

@donquixotedelamancha

This is why I don't see an issue for transwomen competing in female categories, all it will do is raise the standard in the female game. There will become a point when the division between male and female is no longer necessary, which is surely a good thing.

Absolutely. In cycling, for example, women just need to adjust their pelvis shape, produce more red blood cells and increase their proportion of muscle mass and the type of muscle cells so they can compete effectively with transwomen.

Those women complaining this isn't fair just need to try harder.

Agree, the lazy sods just haven't been trying.

Utterly ludicrous point.
Of course top sorts people are genetically gifted.
The same as top musicians, top, top scientists and top everything else.

That is not at all the same as biological men being "discriminated" against by not being allowed to compete against women.

Because the most genetically gifted sports women on earth will be beaten pretty effortlessly by fairly mediocre men (in elite sport terms).