Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

I don't understand why anyone would want an animal in their house that could completely overpower them if it wanted to. I have a dog, I'm a dog lover but my spaniel is small (12kg) with a soft mouth and if I needed to I could easily fend him off. I couldn't say the same for something like a bully/staffy/rottie/mastiff/alsation etc... so I just wouldn't have one.

Anyone who says they 100% trust their dog not to snap are deluded - any dog can get unwell or spooked by something and act out of character.

My dog is very soft and friendly but no chance would I leave him alone with my baby.

So tragic for this little girl and her family.

I’m going to use Rottweilers as an example because it’s a breed I’m familiar with.

The job they’re bred for no longer exists, people don’t need a dog who can guard and round up cows and then pull them on a wagon to market.

So that leaves, sports, showing, pets and random people who want them as an ego boost. With rotties the latter isn’t that many as they’re not currently the fashionable choice.

So you have a split in the breed between show like and “working” line (I mean, it’s just a different type of show, but that’s what they call it).

Show line rotties are bred to not just look good enough to win a show, but also be quite happy to be at a show and be handled by strangers while being judged. So the ones that don’t end up in the show ring make good pets for most owners, they’re still too active and need a lot more engagement than some people are prepared to put in, but with the wrong owner it’s just fairly normal dog issues, bad recall because everything else is more exciting, chewing the house because they’re bored.

“Working” line though, they’re very different - they’re bred for drive and willngness to do bite work, as pets, with the right owner, not inherently an issue if someone is directing that drive into agility or putting in a huge level of training. In the wrong owners hands they are more of a risk of serious behavioural issues, but mostly, people who have one know they have one and are doing appropriate stuff with it.

If you took those dogs with behavioural issues and breed them together because you want a hard dog then treat them in a way that develops the issues then you’ve got a dangerous dog. That’s what’s happening with bull breeds.

@Whatafustercluck

People keep talking about 'these dogs are bred for fighting'. The American Bully XL is not. The aggressiveness has been purposely bred out of them to make them suitable family dogs, and good with children. Which rather indicates that it's the way they're raised that makes or breaks them. Get a KC registered puppy, love it, train it, integrate and socialise it. Don't get an adult dog, of any kind, without knowing their history, off Facebay. As I said, I'd be wary of rescue dogs for this reason, many have behavioural issues and do not make good family pets where they have access to young children.

No one can say 'aggression is bred out'.

They are also known to be protective. How are they protective if if they have no aggression. How does a dog protect something, if it has no ability to be aggressive?

It may say its true on Google. Doesn't make up true.

Its the most ridiculous statement. And why would a family need a dog of that size and power? Why would anyone pick that dog and go 'oh yeah,etc spend years and years breeding aggression out to they can eventually be family dogs'

@HeadNorth

Yup, all these people viciously attacked by chihuahuas and JRTs plainly lived to tell the tale. Very different to being set upon by by a big dog strong enough to kill.

Not all of them, unfortunately. JRTs are on the death by dog list. Not often, but often enough to be noticeable.

There is no safe dog. I say that as the owner of a bull breed. He is a proper bouncy, pully Bullie. I know he is well intentioned and just over exuberant. I also know, from having had very small kids run over and grabbing my "bunny doggy" by his scruff and hugging him, that his behaviour around small, over excited children, and older people with walking frames, is much calmer and patient than anyone might expect. But I don't trust that, ever. I tell people he is friendly but is also very 'bouncy' and has a head like a brick, and isn't afraid to use it. But I can't discourage all contact as he, and the people who just want to lunge at him and pet him, need to learn better manners.

As has been said lots of times here, it isn't always the dog breed, it is the owners, the care taken in early socialisation.

Many dogs like mine were a year old when covid hit. He is now 3 and I am back trying to socialise with people and dogs. It takes time, awareness and never taking your eye off levels of excitement, tension etc.

Sadly not all people do that. Not just bull type or big dog owners. But all sorts of smaller dogs too. Nobody needs to be bothered by a dog, ever.

@Whatafustercluck - I have had a look into the American Bully XL (or smaller...)
What jumped out at me is the following:

When these cruel animal-fighting sports died out, the remaining dogs were bred together and the first bull terriers were created 🤔
When breeders wanted to create theultimate companion dogfrom these bully breeds, they began combining pit bulls with Staffordshire bull terriers and mixing in other breeds 🤔🤔

Anyone can sprout anything on the Internet. But I would be very wary, they are a young breed of dog , apparently developed in the 80's / 90's....

People who know about genetics will be able to tell you that 100's of years of selective breeding are not undone in a few decades. Some traits can easily skip a generation or two only to re surface later on.
And then there are things about genetics that we don't understand.yet. (Example, the "hairless gene" in Chinese Crested dogs is linked to bad teeth ....)

Only a naive person, believes that dogs are cuddly family pets that wouldn't harm the squirrel they chaise or go for a child because said child startled the dog.

@tabulahrasa

I’m going to use Rottweilers as an example because it’s a breed I’m familiar with.

The job they’re bred for no longer exists, people don’t need a dog who can guard and round up cows and then pull them on a wagon to market.

So that leaves, sports, showing, pets and random people who want them as an ego boost. With rotties the latter isn’t that many as they’re not currently the fashionable choice.

So you have a split in the breed between show like and “working” line (I mean, it’s just a different type of show, but that’s what they call it).

Show line rotties are bred to not just look good enough to win a show, but also be quite happy to be at a show and be handled by strangers while being judged. So the ones that don’t end up in the show ring make good pets for most owners, they’re still too active and need a lot more engagement than some people are prepared to put in, but with the wrong owner it’s just fairly normal dog issues, bad recall because everything else is more exciting, chewing the house because they’re bored.

“Working” line though, they’re very different - they’re bred for drive and willngness to do bite work, as pets, with the right owner, not inherently an issue if someone is directing that drive into agility or putting in a huge level of training. In the wrong owners hands they are more of a risk of serious behavioural issues, but mostly, people who have one know they have one and are doing appropriate stuff with it.

If you took those dogs with behavioural issues and breed them together because you want a hard dog then treat them in a way that develops the issues then you’ve got a dangerous dog. That’s what’s happening with bull breeds.

Most sensible and informative post on this thread.

I have a working line Dobermann. I had met a few “show” types and they were lovely and d as I when I went to view these puppies I fell in love.

Boy did I learn fast that working line/show line are practically two different breeds entirely. I thought it was all about how they were brought up - massive mistake.

She can never be off lead and can never be around children. I have to travel across the country for training classes and I have to work her daily. I also had to learn learn learn quickly how to control and raise such a dog.

On the plus side - she’s a bloody good guard dog and I can guarantee nobody will mug me whilst she’s with me. She absolutely lives to work and she seems to know exactly what he “job” is. Her intelligence is off the scale, she’s sharp, she’s fast, she’s everything the breed was intended to be. She should never have been a pet dog and I have had to make many sacrifices as well as invest a shit load of time and money into making her a safe dog. I dread to think what she would be like in the wrong hands.

Seen this and wanted to share it.

SBT helping kids, they are such lovely wee dogs, if treated correctly.

They are high risk. That's the problem. You can't trust them. So what if there are a few good ones?

@Queeen

They are high risk. That's the problem. You can't trust them. So what if there are a few good ones?

Bit more than a few , 100's of thousands in uk at the moment living happily in homes, they are very popular

12 million dogs in uk. They are the most popular breed of you take in account unregistered breeds

Dog ownership comes with a responsibility.
A responsibility to care for the dog AND for the people and other dogs/animals your dog will come into contact with.
Far too many people get a dog with zero research into whether the dog they are getting is suitable for them/their living situation. They ignore that owning a dog is a 10+ year commitment. They want whatever is popular in their area/with their friends without considering the needs of both the dog and themselves.
Good breeders and rescues won't give one of their dogs to an unsuitable home.
Unfortunately, there are more bad breeders out there and there are, like it or not, some not so good rescues. There's one near me that is fairly notorious for not carrying out homechecks (even pre covid) and letting anyone take a dog so long as they pay money.
Legislating against the not so good rescues and bringing them into line is a fairly easy job.
However, I fear that getting rid of the bad breeders who don't health check dogs before breeding, don't do a suitability check on prospective owners or even ask questions to determine suitability so long as they get the money for the dog. Those I do worry that trying to get rid of them is potentially far too late.
The things I would like to see:

I would like to see something like the KC "good citizen" training scheme made compulsory for all dogs.

I would like to see, if not a return of dog licences, at the very least compulsory ownership classes for anyone wanting to own a dog. These classes should include information on how much it costs to own a dog, the typical life span, and that not all breeds are suitable for families. Hopefully, the classes would weed out those unsuitable to own a dog.

In addition to compulsory microchips, compulsory insurance for dogs.

There are further measures I would like to see for breeders and rescues. Good breeders and rescues will do those things already. However, I would hope that the above list would at the least reduce the bad breeders.
Whether adding more breeds to the banned breed list would work, I doubt it. I remember seeing a lot of very dubious lab crosses after pit bulls were banned. It's still a popular way of circumventing the ban of certain breeds as there's no even 50% reliable DNA test for dogs. Short of requiring all dogs to be KC registered and doing away with crosses, there's no way to prevent circumvention of a banned breed with 100% reliability. And requiring KC registration is a whole other problem.

The vast majority of ‘these types’ of dogs are absolutely fine (as much as any other dog or animal would be). Staffies for example have been known to be patient and protective of children. They are a very common dog for families with no incidents.

With any child involved all dogs should be properly assessed before being brought into the home (all rescue centres do this). Buying a dog off of the internet with absolutely no idea what the history is, is very risky whatever the breed. It would never be advisable to do this.

The media perpetuates the cycle of ‘dangerous dogs’, with more dogs being bred for status and abuse, more dogs ending up suffering in rescue, increased stigma around the breed types, people not wanting to rescue them.

Dog attacks are often being attributed to staffies which is misleading. There are many breeds referred to under this umbrella and many are mixes of multiple breeds which cannot be classified as the same.

Being horrible about specific breeds is damaging and counter productive all round

@tabulahrasa

“So why is it certain breeds again and again.”

Because there are subsets of those breed types that are bred to be aggressive by shitty breeders, then treated in a way that encourages that trait by shitty owners.

People aren’t doing that with other types of dog.

Exactly this!!!!

I would like to see something like the KC "good citizen" training scheme made compulsory for all dogs.

I wouldn't, it nearly wrecked my dog. It was far to high in excitement levels for him. Other dogs, slippy floors, lots of sitting, waiting between 'turns'. Had the trainers been any good they would have sent me away and refunded my money.

As it was another behaviourist read a facebook post I made and contacted me for a chat. She made so much sense I withdrew him from the classes and made other arrangements. The KC classes are built for bidable dogs. They don't, cannot, take dogs with very high levles of excitement, anxiety etc into account.

Still not worth the risk, is it. There are other breeds that can't kill. Choose one of those.

Why aren't the parents prosecuted in instances like these?

@DarcyBlue

Why aren't the parents prosecuted in instances like these?

Not a legal expert but I’d imagine because they’ve already had to suffer very horrendous consequences.

Fatal attacks are actually very rare given how many dogs are owned by people. It’s not really one of those - well what did you expect to happen situations.

It is really risky to buy an adult dog from someone you don’t know. But people do it all the time and they get a dog with a hidden medical condition that’s going to cost thousands, or a dog that’s dog reactive, or chases cats or it’s not housetrained, or someone ends up with stitches... and some people luck out and get a great dog, because actually dogs are pretty blooming adaptable considering. So while it’s stupid, it’s not usually someone is going to die type of stupid and it’s perfectly legal to do.

That’s what’s pretty frustrating about the fixation on breed, the bit that should be ringing alarm bells that as a country we could do something about is stopping people buying dogs like they’re used cars or something.

Still not worth the risk, is it. There are other breeds that can't kill. Choose one of those.

I think at this rate (another dog attack in two children this weekend) this is what might be forced upon us if people can't start using their bloody heads.

Friend of mine literally today witnessed someone's JRT being shaken around like a rag doll by a large bull cross type which was off the lead. The poor JRT was on a lead and when they finally managed to get the bastard bull off , the poor JRT owner picked her up, crying her eyes and just ran for the her car to get to the vet. What did the wanker bull owner say? "risk ya take innit, walking ya dog in the park".... Wanker.

I am a Rottweiler owner and I adore her but I would sacrifice owning any breed capable of such damage (a LOT of breeds) if it ends all this misery and fear that is only going to increase. I don't care anymore for 'oh but my staff is an angel' blah blah. There are too many wankers in the world now,

Sorry my mistake, it wasn't a big bull cross, it was a Staffy according to my friend.

I would like to see something like the KC "good citizen" training scheme made compulsory for all dogs.

I wouldn't, it nearly wrecked my dog. It was far to high in excitement levels for him. Other dogs, slippy floors, lots of sitting, waiting between 'turns'. Had the trainers been any good they would have sent me away and refunded my money.

As it was another behaviourist read a facebook post I made and contacted me for a chat. She made so much sense I withdrew him from the classes and made other arrangements. The KC classes are built for bidable dogs. They don't, cannot, take dogs with very high levles of excitement, anxiety etc into account.

Same here, I took my girl to the local class, I was made to feel like shit as my girl became over stimulated and over excited. I contacted a trainer/ behaviouralist and did 1-2-1 , she is still excitable, even at 3yrs old but calming down slowly as she matures. I'm still doing 1-2-1 and small group and will continue to do so.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-60907487.amp

More fur babies doing what they do best and ripping kids to shreds. That's 4 (there was the fatal attack by the Husky on a 3 month old in Woodhall Spa a few weeks ago). It's just too awful, it has to stop. I don't know how people can go on defending dogs.

I'm a third person whose dog didn't cope with KC Good Citizen classes. A young undersocialised rescue, me flying by the seat of my pants with my first ever dog and an instructor who was (with hindsight) doing lots of things wrong. In particular there were dogs of all ages mixed in with young puppies, and one dog-reactive dog who just wasn't coping.

Mine used to manage about the first 20 minutes, then bark any time another dog got near him. I didn't realise until a long time later that he was resource guarding his "territory" (i.e. his corner of the church hall).

In the end he didn't pass his bronze Good Citizen test because he didn't like his paws being touched. What I shouldn't have done (but did) was to try it anyway; he snapped, which was really my fault. There was no support with how to help him feel more comfortable with his paws being touched, and with hindsight it was far too early anyway - 6 months in and he'd only just learned to cope with being picked up, and was only occasionally seeking physical affection from me.

The silver test has the rather bizarre requirement of the dog getting in and out of a car in an orderly manner. At that point in our lives we were living in inner London, I didn't own a car, and I doubt DDog had ever actually been in a car! What would actually have been relevant would have been having public transport as an alternative form of assessment - he was great on the tube!

Good Citizen has the inherent problem of being very goal orientated - they don't mind how you get there (in terms of training methods) so long as you get there... even when it's counterproductive overall.

It's a scheme which is fine for people who have dogs that are reasonably well balanced in the first place and need some life skills. They're the sort of dogs that might jump up at a stranger in the park if undertrained, but would be highly unlikely to deliver a serious bite, much less kill a child. It does absolutely nothing for those dogs which are starting to develop, or have already developed, significant behavioural problems.

Now, what I could support would be a system where anyone getting a dog had to undergo some training, consisting of

• before getting the dog - 4 hours of theory classes, covering things like how dogs learn, effect of diet on behaviour, positive reinforcement training, dog body language, and why a dog should never be punished for growling.
• after getting the dog - 10 weeks of dog training classes; a standard puppy class for those getting a puppy, and a more bespoke 1-2-1 class for anyone adopting a rescue dog with issues.

But while those getting puppies from semi-respectable breeders and rescue centres would find it enforced, I suspect it would be much harder to enforce for those who buy a dog on facebook / inherit their late mother's dog / get a dog from a friend who can't look after it anymore.

@DarcyBlue

Why aren't the parents prosecuted in instances like these?

They should be - and can be.

If every person who had a dog that bit people was prosecuted and banned from owning animals it would go a long way to sorting the problems that exist.

@Questiontellme

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-60907487.amp

More fur babies doing what they do best and ripping kids to shreds. That's 4 (there was the fatal attack by the Husky on a 3 month old in Woodhall Spa a few weeks ago). It's just too awful, it has to stop. I don't know how people can go on defending dogs.

In roughly the same way as people go on defending the use of cars. Except in that case it's adult humans using a piece of machinery that obeys their every command and still they screw it up.

On average, every week, one child dies and 37 are seriously injured in a road traffic collision. That's 52 per year, 520 per decade, killed by people driving cars.

According to the wikipedia page linked to by PP, in the decade 2010-2019 there were 13 child deaths involving dogs.

Your child is forty times more likely to be killed by a car driver than a dog.

If you are truly concerned about child deaths and serious injuries, then you'd be much better off campaigning for road safety measures than dog safety measures.

Ahhh yes there's always something worse isn't there @user3837313202 stunning use of Wikipedia 👌. Absolutely pointless argument.

well its possible to care about both, but its still a mystery to me why anyone would decide that they needed a dog in their house that had the ability to crush a child's head in its jaws in one. The injuries from these deaths are horrific - perhaps if parents understood just how powerful these dogs are, they might not be so bloody negligent.