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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

633 replies

MsWalterMitty · 24/03/2022 19:44

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

OP posts:
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Walkingalot · 25/03/2022 09:35

I just showed a pic of the dog to my teenage DS and told him the story. His first response - why didn't they have a muzzle on it, it's not like they know the dog.

MotherIveys · 25/03/2022 09:39

Owning a dog is a privilege, not a right and because of the minority that should not be allowed to own a goldfish let alone a dog, decent dog owners will be the ones that pay the price with shoddy legislation that won't make any difference.

it's clear something needs to be done but it does sadden me that because of 'the few', the same type of 'few', over and over again, decent responsible owners will be the ones to pay the price, not the idiots who don't care for law and responsibility anyway.

There is no place in society for these types of dogs (or people IMO) but currently breeding and selling these monsters is lucrative. Selling for thousands and thousands of pounds and they're generally being passed between the type of people already engaged in illegal or dodgy activity. They've become big, business and they're not shy about it. To open your eyes, take a look at the Facebook groups for these XL Bullies, bred down from and still bred to pit bulls. I recently heard of a £5000 stud fee. These not are not recognised by any registration body and pedigree dog prices don't even come close to people are charging for these things.

I'm utterly fed up of hearing breed not deed because more likely than not, if a child is killed, it is by this type of dog. Bull breeds, any dogs that have been bred to fight are wired differently, stop suggesting otherwise. Yes any dog can have temperament issues but anyone who has real dog experience knows full well what I mean by 'the head going'. Bull is often put into lurchers too, to make them harder and more effective killers.

Sadly I think the time has come to some severe restriction on dog ownership , a blanket ban on breeding of many more breeds of dogs and perhaps even the type of home you allowed to own a dog. This would affect me (we have a Rottweiler) and most of my responsible friends, including my best friend, but something needs to be done.

SlashBeef · 25/03/2022 09:43

Cannot understand why anyone would want one of the horrible looking things. Well I can actually, it's so they can look intimidating. I cross the road when I see one. Wouldn't let my kids anywhere near them.

JuvenileGreyFox · 25/03/2022 09:45

It is also a massive red flag when you see these types of breeds being 'sold' as adults. There is a reason.

tabulahrasa · 25/03/2022 09:48

“Well quite. Nobody is mixing up pitbulls and poodles, are they?!”

Lol

But cross a lab, pointer or Dalmatian for example with anything with a broad head and people will misidentify it as a pitbull or staffie.

With the types of dog that are most commonly identified they are by definition mixed breeds in this country.

It just doesn’t even make sense to insist that breed is the issue when it isn’t one breed, but a mix.

What would absolutely work on lowering dog attacks would be controls over breeding dogs and owning dogs, of any breed.

freedaym · 25/03/2022 09:51

So if you believe breed matters more than what breeders or owners do because some breeds are inherently going to behave more dangerously it should matter hugely what’s actually in those dogs.

For me it's all 3, I would much rather a fight with a Bichon than a pit bull 🤷🏻‍♀️

Weekendtobegin · 25/03/2022 09:53

Yanbu, it doesn't matter at all if it a banned breed.

The parents should be prosecuted. It was a terrible, irresponsible and neglectful thing to bring a strong powerful and unknown dog into their home around their small defenceless children.

Any dog can bite, but with a dog like this one you might as well climb into a lions den for all the chance you'd have against it if it turns on you.

They didn't want it as a loving family pet they wanted it to breed and for status, as with a lot of owners of these type of dogs.

Sick of reading claptrap on here about not blaming the dogs, not all dog owners bla bla. Take some fucking responsibility. There is no excuse whatsoever to bring a potentially dangerous animal into your home around your children.

I grew up with lots of pets including large dogs the fact is it's way too easy for any idiot to squire a dog and children are paying the price.

tabulahrasa · 25/03/2022 09:55

“For me it's all 3, I would much rather a fight with a Bichon than a pit bull 🤷🏻‍♀️“

But if breeders didn’t breed badly and owners were responsible - you wouldn’t have to fight either.

If we banned every breed but bichons I bet you someone would manage to breed killer ones.

Gotajobthrunepotism · 25/03/2022 09:58

I think the most important thing is not to leave any dog alone with a small child. We had our dog from 6 weeks old. When DS was born she was 6 years old. We never left them in the same room together at all without supervision. It was a pain in the arse if baby was sleeping and dog was lying about and I needed to go to the loo as I had to get dog to come with me.

But those poor parents have paid the ultimate price

Weekendtobegin · 25/03/2022 09:59

But those poor parents have paid the ultimate price

No, that poor child has paid the ultimate price for her parents being irresponsible neglectful dickheads.

XelaM · 25/03/2022 10:14

@Weekendtobegin"Yanbu, it doesn't matter at all if it a banned breed.

The parents should be prosecuted. It was a terrible, irresponsible and neglectful thing to bring a strong powerful and unknown dog into their home around their small defenceless children.

Any dog can bite, but with a dog like this one you might as well climb into a lions den for all the chance you'd have against it if it turns on you.

They didn't want it as a loving family pet they wanted it to breed and for status, as with a lot of owners of these type of dogs.

Sick of reading claptrap on here about not blaming the dogs, not all dog owners bla bla. Take some fucking responsibility. There is no excuse whatsoever to bring a potentially dangerous animal into your home around your children.

I grew up with lots of pets including large dogs the fact is it's way too easy for any idiot to squire a dog and children are paying the price."

This. What's the point in having a dog that you have no chance against in your own home?! Genuine question.

MotherIveys · 25/03/2022 10:29

"they've paid the highest price".. No, that poor baby did, with immense suffering.

Would you have any sympathy for them if they had left a loaded gun lying around the house? Or drugs?

This wasn't an accident, they brought an adult, massive bull breed into a house with their baby. These dogs aren't cheap, a thought process was apparently involved here. They are utterly, utterly stupid and deserve to be prosecuted as well as anyone that breeds these dogs. It needs to be made clear to the public that if a dog kills a child, at least one human will be responsible and actually punished accordingly.

Clearly the safety of a child doesn't even register for some people.

Hyenaormeercat · 25/03/2022 10:49

I have a huskita. We adopted her as a 8 week old from a reputable rescue (national) we were told husky malamute x breed. Turns out she is predominantly akita.

She is nearly 4 now. I still have regular training sessions with reputable non aversive trainers. I will continue throughout her lifetime.

When DGC come to visit she stays in the kitchen with a gate across the doorway. She could jump it if she tried but she is happy laying down just watching.

She has never shown any signs of aggressive behaviour. Exuberant, yes, strong willed, yes. She isn't keen on small dogs, after being attacked as a puppy so I don't let her off lead unless in a secure dog free ( except her friends) field. Yes ,she could pull me over and did on one occasion, I got her home and rang the trainers and booked in for a session! She is very popular locally. People ask to say hello all the time and she loves the attention. I have seen pictures of her on local social media! (In a positive light!) 🤣 I strictly supervise her though. It's as much to protect her as other people. I am responsible for her.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 25/03/2022 11:08

The internet has a lot to answer for

Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!
Eeksteek · 25/03/2022 11:08

It’s also worth pointing out that we have a self-selecting sample of irresponsible (and I partially include ‘didn’t know’ in irresponsible. It’s responsible to find out) owners here. Few responsible owners are going to research a fighting dog and think it’s going to be ok to have it around a toddler, are they? It’s almost automatic that owning these breeds in a family environment is done by someone who doesn’t have the knowledge and skill to assess manage the risks (because if they did, they would already know that the risk is too high and not even consider it!)

They were bred to be weapons. They are also often (not exclusively) bought by people who want a weapon. They might not mean to use them as weapons, but it’s no different to carrying a gun, a knife or a baseball bat, except that knives and baseball bats aren’t sentient beings and can’t go into an unstoppable attack independently. If you want a gun for ‘fun’ you have to demonstrate that you can keep other people safe from it. That you know how use, store and transport it safely. That you will keep it away from children. That you have a level of competence in using it and are surrounded by others who keep these norms. As a result, guns are quite hard for an average person to get hold of and gun crime is relatively low the in the UK. I have no clue how to go about acquiring an illegal gun, but I bet I could get hold a dangerous dog this weekend if I wanted. Being illegal won’t eradicate the bloodlines straight away, but it will help, and it will help keep them away from children, too.

Of the 27 fatal dog attacks in the list of upthread, 20 are some sort of bull breed. That’s 75 percent. They aren’t even common dogs. This is because they were bred to be weapons, and are easily available to people who wanted weapons but are not responsible enough to store them safely. If those blood lines were eradicated, some of those attacks would not have happened. If the first thing on a Google search was that these dogs are the most dangerous to children, then some people would have thought twice and bought something else. Some people’s partners would have said ‘not near my kids’. Some people would have bought them and kept them in kennels. Some people would have bought other dogs that are not so weaponised and might not have attacked. But saying it’s the owners not the breed makes people think they can keep a dog like this safely. People who want them already have a a high chance of having an inflated sense of their own ability. Dog owners have a responsibility to help people risk assess by being realistic about breed traits, not individuals and that means breed matters.

If you Google Beagles, you will find lots of dross about how they are ideal family pets. Not too big, not too small, not extreme form, easy to care for, don’t shed, relaxed and don’t need much walking - it’s grossly misleading. Beagles were bred to live packs in a stable all week, chase a fox for ten miles over rough terrain at the weekend (independently making their own decisions about how and where to go) rip it apart, and then call the master of the hounds to collect them. They don’t care what you want, have no instinct to please you, have no recall, have a strong prey drive, suffer from Godawful separation anxiety, often nip out of fear or anxiety and are VERY destructive in a home. Shelters are full of them. Despite being an experienced dog owner, despite researching the breed, despite getting older dogs that have always been pets, mine are still the most poorly trainable dogs I’ve ever had, and I would not have them again. But they don’t maul kids, because they are not powerful or driven enough. They are just a pain in the arse. All dog owners help by candidly saying ‘this breed was bred to XXXXX’ this can be managed by spending a lot of time and effort on training.

DaffTheDoggo · 25/03/2022 11:27

Great post @Eeksteek

Nicholethejewellery · 25/03/2022 11:36

Any dog needs constant supervision from someone strong enough to restrain it when it has access to a young child. Not just "I think the dog's asleep I'll just take my empty mug into the kitchen" type of supervision, the full undivided attention sort.

Obviously the risk varies with breed but ultimately it is the nature of all dogs to want to kill. That's how they've evolved, that's how they have lived so long. Even the most docile dog can "flip" into a savage, unprovoked attack without warning at any moment.

Dogs and children don't mix, at least not until the child is strong enough to be able to defend themselves. (Which will vary by dog breed of course.)

BoodleBug51 · 25/03/2022 11:52

I've got 2 spaniels. They never ever are left alone with my grandkids. I love all of them too much. A dog snapping can happen in seconds... thankfully both of mine are soft mouthed, but my eldest snapped at me once when he'd ripped his dew claw and I touched it by mistake. He's the gentlest boy but in pain? You can't ever predict a dogs behaviour and I'd consider myself an experienced owner. Only a pig shit thick or arrogant owner would ever trust a dog 100%.

A dog losing control at the size of an XL bully? You don't stand a prayer.

That poor baby was let down by the people who were meant to protect her, and as a society we need to start coming down on this like a ton of fucking bricks. Not put money into their crowd funding.

Thisismynamenow · 25/03/2022 12:00

Absolutely not. It's 1000% about the way a dog is brought up, it has nothing to do with the breed.

Firstly, the only time I've ever been bitten by a dog is by a Yorke, you know the 'cute family dogs'

Secondly, whist this was horrific, it was completely the parents fault, they shouldn't of left the baby with the dog alone. They should be held responsible and prosecuted for their neglect.

Thirdly, no dog what so ever should be left alone with a child, they're ANIMALS. Doesn't matter how 'domesticated' they are, they're still animals.

I for one cannot wait for my staffy/English bull terrier Cross to meet my baby in 5 weeks when I give birth. I have no doubt he will become a nanny dog, and care incredibly for the baby. But I'm not stupid enough, or irresponsible enough to EVER leave them alone together, as that is a perfect example of the dog being an ANIMAL and protecting themselves.

It infuriates me that people still have this ignorant view that bull terriers are inherently dangerous, when they're not, they're as dangerous as a collie or a spanial just bigger.

HoveringDonkeyofKnock · 25/03/2022 12:03

Yes any dog can become dangerous with bad ownership.

However certain breeds have been selectively bed over centuries to enhance their fighting instincts. They’ve been bred for aggression. That is what all those terrier/ bull dog crosses we’re originally bred for.

They are also more powerful. So with both of those factors combined - even with good ownership there is always going to be an increased risk.

In some countries the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, the American Bulldog and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (our U.K. Staffie) are all classed as “pit bull types” and are banned. They are all bred from original so called bull/ terrier stock.

Most are fine with adults, very affectionate. But they are often aggressive towards other dogs and animals. How likely are they to sometimes mistakenly direct their instincts towards small children? I agree they are not what I would call an ‘ideal’ family pet and I think we need to have a proper discussion about this as a society.

Addsverisimilitude · 25/03/2022 12:05

@JuvenileGreyFox

Agree with previous posters that a large part of the problem is also people buying breeds that are completely unsuitable for their family and lifestyle. Someone I know, who has mobility problems and difficulty walking has just bought a husky puppy. A dog that needs hours and hours of daily exercise. Because they love the breed.
This. A lot of people locally who have bull type breeds are also disabled and apparently can't walk as far as their front garden. They don't have dog walkers and those dogs get so little exercise...
Turningpurple · 25/03/2022 12:08

I for one cannot wait for my staffy/English bull terrier Cross to meet my baby in 5 weeks when I give birth. I have no doubt he will become a nanny dog, and care incredibly for the baby. But I'm not stupid enough, or irresponsible enough to EVER leave them alone together, as that is a perfect example of the dog being an ANIMAL and protecting themselves.

Is this a joke?

Weekendtobegin · 25/03/2022 12:13

It's not 1000% to do with the way the dog is brought up though. Certain breeds are not only stronger and more powerful, but as others have explained so well on this thread, have different traits. For example not backing down. So if they do flip or snap, the consequences are much worse.

I've been bitten by a small snappy dog. They are unlikely to savage you.

HoveringDonkeyofKnock · 25/03/2022 12:24

Sorry just a correction above the American Bulldog although sometimes classed as a ‘pit bull type’ wasn’t bred from a terrier cross although it was bred for blood sports.

I meant the American Bully - which was bred from an American Pit Bull (terrier-bull cross). Although being a more recent invention wasn’t specifically bred for fighting it already has that pit bull lineage in it.

Porkbuttsandtaters · 25/03/2022 12:25

Beagles might be a pain in the arse but it’s never a beagle when a child gets killed is it. We have a beagle and I’ll take a bit of naughtiness and fuck all recall over a bully breed any day. People pulling up 10 year old articles about a retriever killing a child on the other side of the world - clutching at straws much??

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