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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

633 replies

MsWalterMitty · 24/03/2022 19:44

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Indoctro · 25/03/2022 12:30

@Thisismynamenow

Absolutely not. It's 1000% about the way a dog is brought up, it has nothing to do with the breed.

Firstly, the only time I've ever been bitten by a dog is by a Yorke, you know the 'cute family dogs'

Secondly, whist this was horrific, it was completely the parents fault, they shouldn't of left the baby with the dog alone. They should be held responsible and prosecuted for their neglect.

Thirdly, no dog what so ever should be left alone with a child, they're ANIMALS. Doesn't matter how 'domesticated' they are, they're still animals.

I for one cannot wait for my staffy/English bull terrier Cross to meet my baby in 5 weeks when I give birth. I have no doubt he will become a nanny dog, and care incredibly for the baby. But I'm not stupid enough, or irresponsible enough to EVER leave them alone together, as that is a perfect example of the dog being an ANIMAL and protecting themselves.

It infuriates me that people still have this ignorant view that bull terriers are inherently dangerous, when they're not, they're as dangerous as a collie or a spanial just bigger.

I am a staffy lover and have had numerous ones over the years, and currently have one. please do not have your baby near your dog, nanny dog or not. It's a dog and can kill your baby.

Dogs find babies stressful , ALL dogs

Dogs should be near babies or toddlers ever. I fell pregnant while owning two Staffies. The dogs were constantly gated away from my child until they passed away with old age (they were older when child born) . Luckily my house was big enough to do this and the baby/ toddler be safe and the dogs still plenty of room to be happy still.

I would only allow Primary aged children near dogs. No under 5's ever.

Nobodycarestakeitelsewhere · 25/03/2022 12:40

Secondly, whist this was horrific, it was completely the parents fault, they shouldn't of left the baby with the dog alone

They didn't leave the baby alone with the dog. The mother was in the room. Don't kid yourself that your baby will be safe from the dog because you think you're a better parent than them. It takes a split second.

toomuchlaundry · 25/03/2022 12:43

She might have been in the same room but had a powerful dog that she wasn’t able to remove her child from. And it would be obvious from the size of dog that this could be an issue

CounsellorTroi · 25/03/2022 12:46

I've been bitten by a small snappy dog. They are unlikely to savage you.

Terrier types’ instinct is to kill with one bite rather than maul or fight. Which is why they are good ratters.

Whitney168 · 25/03/2022 12:50

I think the most important thing is not to leave any dog alone with a small child.

With these dogs, it's not though. For example, read the story of Stephen Potts, whose own dogs mauled his arm so badly he lost it, despite various grown adults trying to beat the dogs off with garden tools and golf clubs. Yes, he was clearly an idiot man who did not keep his dogs well, but there are plenty of those.

If anyone is reading these posts and thinking smugly that they have a dog like this, but they never leave it alone with their children, I'm sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think you have a chance of stopping it if a child is attacked while you're right next to it.

Indoctro · 25/03/2022 12:50

@Nobodycarestakeitelsewhere

Secondly, whist this was horrific, it was completely the parents fault, they shouldn't of left the baby with the dog alone

They didn't leave the baby alone with the dog. The mother was in the room. Don't kid yourself that your baby will be safe from the dog because you think you're a better parent than them. It takes a split second.

Exactly this , and why I bang on about how no under 5 should be near dogs. They don't have to be left alone for dogs to attack. Children are being hurt all the time and worse killed because people allow small kids around dogs. Don't do it.

The damage any dog could to do a baby in a split second is unthinkable. By the time you react , the child is going to be badly scarred or worse dead.

You being in the room isn't fail safe. Lots of kids get injured in front of adults.

Indoctro · 25/03/2022 12:55

@Whitney168

I think the most important thing is not to leave any dog alone with a small child.

With these dogs, it's not though. For example, read the story of Stephen Potts, whose own dogs mauled his arm so badly he lost it, despite various grown adults trying to beat the dogs off with garden tools and golf clubs. Yes, he was clearly an idiot man who did not keep his dogs well, but there are plenty of those.

If anyone is reading these posts and thinking smugly that they have a dog like this, but they never leave it alone with their children, I'm sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think you have a chance of stopping it if a child is attacked while you're right next to it.

I witnessed a staffy and boxer fighting. 2 men couldn't couldn't separate them. They were beating them, kicking them, dragging them, trying to choke them , and it still took a good few minutes to separate them.

I also witness my two JRT fighting as a child and although my parents managed to grab them and pick them up one had hold of the other and they couldn't get it to let go, it did eventually but the other JRT had a ripped open neck which required a fair amount of stitches.

When dogs attack it can be very hard to get them off.

Weekendtobegin · 25/03/2022 13:00

I suppose the difference with a small dog is that an adult could stop the attack easily enough.

A small dog could still take a chunk out of a child's face and if I'm honest I absolutely cringe when I see photos of toddlers lying around on the floor with dogs and putting their faces right near to the dog. It only takes a second and even the loveliest most gentle dog could become scared or aggravated.

But a large powerful dog is dangerous purely because they are so powerful.

Nobodycarestakeitelsewhere · 25/03/2022 13:01

She might have been in the same room but had a powerful dog that she wasn’t able to remove her child from. And it would be obvious from the size of dog that this could be an issue

That was the point i was raising - that poster said they've got an EBT x staffy and it'll be a nice nanny dog but bella's parent was at fault for leaving baby and dog alone - which wasn't the case. Bella's mum probably thought the dog was safe - right up to the point it wasn't. And being in the same room isn't a guarantee that something won't happen. Same goes for the EBT X staffy. It might be a nanny dog. It might not. Hell of a chance to take.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 25/03/2022 13:02

@Mummyoflittledragon

Crikey *@CanIPleaseHaveOne*. I imagine you reported this to the police. What is happening to the dog?
We reported to the police. The family moved the dog to the grandmothers house. After the police visit the dog came back.

Obviously, DD cannot go to the house anymore.

The dog has bitten two more times since then!

tabulahrasa · 25/03/2022 13:19

@Porkbuttsandtaters

Beagles might be a pain in the arse but it’s never a beagle when a child gets killed is it. We have a beagle and I’ll take a bit of naughtiness and fuck all recall over a bully breed any day. People pulling up 10 year old articles about a retriever killing a child on the other side of the world - clutching at straws much??
It could quite easily be a beagle if people bred them and treated them like some people do bully breeds though.

I’d take a bully breed dog from responsible breeders who breed for stable temperament and vet their potential buyers over a beagle bred for aggression and raised to encourage that and then sold online to whoever answers the ad.

DarleneSnell · 25/03/2022 13:31

I just wouldn't get any dog that I have no chance of getting off my kids if it turned.

I feel very sorry for the family but that dog was utterly unsuitable as a family pet, that's obvious by looking at it.

Velvian · 25/03/2022 13:44

@Thisismynamenow, I cannot see any indication that the little girl and the dog were unsupervised. Supervision will reduce, but not eliminate risk.

HeadNorth · 25/03/2022 14:18

But wee dog can get a swift punt up the butt if it turns, it is not going to savage a child to death. So a PP can remember being bitten by a Yorkie - oh look, it didn't kill you. Because it is small and obviously much safer to have around kids, even if it is a wee shit, then any big bull breed.

To be honest, all of these big breeds bred to guard make me nervous as I am a small woman and I reckon they could easily overpower me. But I'm not afraid of a snappy wee Yorkie or its ilk.

Rinoachicken · 25/03/2022 14:33

I’ve grown up with dogs and now am a dog owner. I knew when choosing the breed that I wanted a small dog. Because I have children. My children are abit older, 8 and 12. I deliberately waited until my kids were old enough to be taught how to be safe around dogs.

I also knew that I would never ever get a dog that would be large or strong enough that I couldn’t easily and quickly overpower it if the need arose. That ruled out anything larger than a spaniel tbh.

We have a chug (chihuahua x pug). She’s a beautifully good natured dog and is well trained. When she’s also enough we’re going to try agility with her. But she’s still a dog, an animal. I get fed up of the amount of people who let their kids run up to pet her because she ‘so cute’.

She is cute, but she’s also an animal, with her own needs and fears and desires, she’s not a ‘child’ or a ‘fur-baby’. She’s an animal.

If she ever bit in anger or defense, it would hurt. She has surprisingly strong jaws for her size. But I also know that (as awful as it is to contemplate) if she were attacking, I could easily overpower her or even kill her.

I don’t understand why anyone keeps a dog, especially around children, they would be incapable of physically defending themselves against or overpowering. It’s like inviting a tiger into your house.

Rinoachicken · 25/03/2022 14:35

*old enough - not also enough. She’s currently 11mths so too young for agility.

KatieB55 · 25/03/2022 14:43

These dogs should most definitely not be allowed in homes with children. It's just common sense that you don't take the risk, especially when you don't know the background of the dog.

WetLookKnitwear · 25/03/2022 14:50

when people talk about the risks their dog poses to people they start rambling on about the dog as though it’s an old pal with a rich life story. No. It’s an animal, just be sober about the risks.

I love my pets but they’re animals. They don’t have a concept of good and bad.

It doesn’t matter how much you train a dog, there will still be a risk there because it’s still a beast.

StellaAndCrow · 25/03/2022 15:06

@HeadNorth

But wee dog can get a swift punt up the butt if it turns, it is not going to savage a child to death. So a PP can remember being bitten by a Yorkie - oh look, it didn't kill you. Because it is small and obviously much safer to have around kids, even if it is a wee shit, then any big bull breed.

To be honest, all of these big breeds bred to guard make me nervous as I am a small woman and I reckon they could easily overpower me. But I'm not afraid of a snappy wee Yorkie or its ilk.

Yes. I used to walk American Pit Bulls for an RSPCA-type organisation. They were adorable, but after one accidentally knocked me over (I was sitting down, she was playing) I suddenly realised how much heavier she was than me, and how wide her jaws were - considerably wider than my head. However much I think they can be really lovely, I wouldn't have one in the house I don't think as they could overpower me, and I definitely couldn't pull her off if she attacked someone when out.
Verv · 25/03/2022 15:25

I think bringing an unknown adult dog into a house with a young child is dangerous.
A large muscular breed, even more so.
I cannot understand what the parents were thinking, IF they were thinking at all.

I grew up with dogs, and have them now, and generally have the mindset that a dogs behaviour is the owners responsibility.
That said, pit bulls and american bulls are not a breed I would have, or be particularly comfortable with being around with my dog, let alone a child.
Unpredictable wall of muscle imo.

Chickandspin · 25/03/2022 16:00

"It’s also worth pointing out that we have a self-selecting sample of irresponsible (and I partially include ‘didn’t know’ in irresponsible. It’s responsible to find out) owners here. Few responsible owners are going to research a fighting dog and think it’s going to be ok to have it around a toddler, are they? It’s almost automatic that owning these breeds in a family environment is done by someone who doesn’t have the knowledge and skill to assess manage the risks (because if they did, they would already know that the risk is too high and not even consider it!)

They were bred to be weapons. They are also often (not exclusively) bought by people who want a weapon. They might not mean to use them as weapons, but it’s no different to carrying a gun, a knife or a baseball bat, except that knives and baseball bats aren’t sentient beings and can’t go into an unstoppable attack independently. If you want a gun for ‘fun’ you have to demonstrate that you can keep other people safe from it. That you know how use, store and transport it safely. That you will keep it away from children. That you have a level of competence in using it and are surrounded by others who keep these norms. As a result, guns are quite hard for an average person to get hold of and gun crime is relatively low the in the UK. I have no clue how to go about acquiring an illegal gun, but I bet I could get hold a dangerous dog this weekend if I wanted. Being illegal won’t eradicate the bloodlines straight away, but it will help, and it will help keep them away from children, too.

Of the 27 fatal dog attacks in the list of upthread, 20 are some sort of bull breed. That’s 75 percent. They aren’t even common dogs. This is because they were bred to be weapons, and are easily available to people who wanted weapons but are not responsible enough to store them safely. If those blood lines were eradicated, some of those attacks would not have happened. If the first thing on a Google search was that these dogs are the most dangerous to children, then some people would have thought twice and bought something else. Some people’s partners would have said ‘not near my kids’. Some people would have bought them and kept them in kennels. Some people would have bought other dogs that are not so weaponised and might not have attacked. But saying it’s the owners not the breed makes people think they can keep a dog like this safely. People who want them already have a a high chance of having an inflated sense of their own ability. Dog owners have a responsibility to help people risk assess by being realistic about breed traits, not individuals and that means breed matters.

If you Google Beagles, you will find lots of dross about how they are ideal family pets. Not too big, not too small, not extreme form, easy to care for, don’t shed, relaxed and don’t need much walking - it’s grossly misleading. Beagles were bred to live packs in a stable all week, chase a fox for ten miles over rough terrain at the weekend (independently making their own decisions about how and where to go) rip it apart, and then call the master of the hounds to collect them. They don’t care what you want, have no instinct to please you, have no recall, have a strong prey drive, suffer from Godawful separation anxiety, often nip out of fear or anxiety and are VERY destructive in a home. Shelters are full of them. Despite being an experienced dog owner, despite researching the breed, despite getting older dogs that have always been pets, mine are still the most poorly trainable dogs I’ve ever had, and I would not have them again. But they don’t maul kids, because they are not powerful or driven enough. They are just a pain in the arse. All dog owners help by candidly saying ‘this breed was bred to XXXXX’ this can be managed by spending a lot of time and effort on training."

Great post Eeksteek . It's all very well people defending bull/fighting breeds but no one can deny they are a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands and that is the problem. I'm afraid feelings for your cuddly staffy are irrelevant when for too many others are exploiting the dangerous side of these breeds. The last two years has seen an explosion in numbers of them. We're going to see more attacks on children and I dread to think how many bites and attacks in adults go unreported.

Thesearmsofmine · 25/03/2022 16:01

@Whitney168

I think the most important thing is not to leave any dog alone with a small child.

With these dogs, it's not though. For example, read the story of Stephen Potts, whose own dogs mauled his arm so badly he lost it, despite various grown adults trying to beat the dogs off with garden tools and golf clubs. Yes, he was clearly an idiot man who did not keep his dogs well, but there are plenty of those.

If anyone is reading these posts and thinking smugly that they have a dog like this, but they never leave it alone with their children, I'm sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think you have a chance of stopping it if a child is attacked while you're right next to it.

^ This

A baby was killed by a dog locally to me around 15 years ago now, he was not alone, he was with his aunt who tried to get the dog off but couldn’t because it was too large and powerful. Funnily enough I recall that the dog also been bought in a pub. So very sad.

InPatagonia · 25/03/2022 16:08

These threads are always the same, with people defending breeds and condemning owners. True up to a point, but fgs why why why if you have a tiny child would you make it share an environment with one of those beasts? The thing is, people who like these creatures will not have any talk that they’re in any way unsuitable for life with a small child.

One of my sisters is like this - she cannot be reasoned with when it comes to these breeds. Fortunately she has neither a dog or a child at this moment in time, but she is adamant that they pose no danger to a child if they are properly trained and socialised. Pointing out the reality that if something happened and it turned and attacked either her or a child and she wouldn’t be able fight it off due to its size, jaw strength and musculature is just bad press and not based in reality. It’s like arguing with a really stubborn wall.

I only hope that she changes her mind if she has a child first and parental instinct kicks in.

2Gen · 25/03/2022 16:48

I've just looked up images of them! Feckin' demonic looking creatures, like Hell-Hounds!
I'm so sorry for the poor child R.I.P., what a horrific death. I hope that this will be a warning to others not to get one, but people do dangerous things all the time, so these horrors really need to be banned by law.
I remeber that there was a man who used to walk 3 huge rottweilers around where we lived when my son was at Infant school. When I saw them coming, I used to cross the road with my son straight away, no matter how inconvenient. I'm very wary of those sorts of dogs and do not trust them at all. The sort of people that own them are often not great either. The bloke that owned them looked like a right arrogant bastard to me, I remember, walking around like he owned the place and enjoyed other people's discomfort!

SamphiretheStickerist · 25/03/2022 16:58

@catgirl1976

Labs and retrievers? I honestly don’t recall any incidents of them attacking children. Is that actually true?
Various insurance agencies etc have different lists but for number of attacks the Jack Russell is usually somewhere in the top ten

www.starlimited.co.uk/blog/the-5-most-dangerous-dog-breeds-in-the-uk/

But, and I won a Bull Terrier, thankfull not on the list, here is the death by dog list

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom#2010%E2%80%932019

Most recent is all about the Bull types.

Look back 10 years and Rotties. Dobermans become more prevalent

But Jack Russells and Bull types are in all lists, but not all years.